But I came across an excellent piece of work that I originally discovered and read a long time ago. It pretty much exposes all the 9/11 Truthers and their little "truth movement" for what they really are. A bunch of nutts so obsessed with anti-bush /government/USA idea they'll twist anything to support their facts..
I'm posting this here not to stir up political discussion on 9/11 but more as a means of exposure for an educating piece of work.
http://www.jod911.com/Roberts_WTC7_Lies.doc
It's 7mb roughly but it is a very good read. Very thurough and detailed points, counter points, etc.
This will definitely take anyone suffering from RLS's mind off it for a while
edit: it's been brought to my attention the link may not work properly.. Folks can try the main site here - http://www.jod911.com/ - it's the second link on the page, "WTC Bldg 7 & Lies about the 9/11 "Truth Movement""
Again it's rather large, so give it a little time.. Otherwise it's a good read, it should open in Microsoft Word (not sure about wordpad).
Probably asking for trouble
Heh, yeah, you're totally asking for trouble. 
Not from me. I'm on your side. I work with a lot of people who buy into this particular conspiracy theory, though, so I know there are going to be people who disagree, no matter what that webpage says.
Not from me. I'm on your side. I work with a lot of people who buy into this particular conspiracy theory, though, so I know there are going to be people who disagree, no matter what that webpage says.
Disclaimer: I often talk about what I do and what works for me, but these are specific to me and you should always consult a healthcare professional before trying these things yourself, lest you endanger your health or life.
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ViewsAskew
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Um-hmmm [clearing throat to get attention]
No problem with the post....just gentle reminder that discourse, discussio, and even debate is fine, but politics and religion can be soooo inflammatory.
I'd just ask that we all be careful about how we post...
No problem with the post....just gentle reminder that discourse, discussio, and even debate is fine, but politics and religion can be soooo inflammatory.
I'd just ask that we all be careful about how we post...
Ann - Take what you need, leave the rest
Managing Your RLS
Opinions presented by Discussion Board Moderators are personal in nature and do not, in any way, represent the opinion of the RLS Foundation, and are not medical advice.
Managing Your RLS
Opinions presented by Discussion Board Moderators are personal in nature and do not, in any way, represent the opinion of the RLS Foundation, and are not medical advice.
i'll dive in.... first i don't think there was any conspiracy in the planes flying into the buildings.... that was a screw up on clintons part for not taking bin laden seriously and our gov not paying attn to warnings giving to them....with that said....i wouldn't doubt the US didn't shoot down united 93 to keep it from hitting the whitehouse....their was nothing left of that plane.....and yes i know how fast it was going and i know it hit hard...but they were tracking that plane and living up here every time their is a security threat i have seen how fast those airforce jets take off from up here.....anyway thats my theory...i think the real estate dev thing is juuuuuuussstttt a bit far fetched....thats all i can think of now i am sleepy
let the argueing begin!
dee
let the argueing begin!
dee
I feel like a science project!!!
“The syndrome is so common that it should be known to every physician.”
Dr Karl Ekbom, 1945
“The syndrome is so common that it should be known to every physician.”
Dr Karl Ekbom, 1945
United 93 is an interesting case the more you think about it, because the facts of the case actually support either theory.
For example: Why would they shoot it down over an open field with no valuable target in sight? They had plenty of time to look for another resolution (if any). On the flip side it makes sense to shoot it down there because it's a big open field in the middle of nowhere. You can stop it before it reaches its target and minimize the tragic loss of life.
But that being said, between phone calls coming off the plane and what I remember being reported about flight data, etc, the plane was essentially driven straight into the ground.
This would lend itself to the scenario that the passengers tried to regain control of the plane, but at some point realizing they would die before it happened, they chose to slam the plane into the ground instead.
On another note, kind of makes you wonder about the movie Millennium, doesn't it?
For example: Why would they shoot it down over an open field with no valuable target in sight? They had plenty of time to look for another resolution (if any). On the flip side it makes sense to shoot it down there because it's a big open field in the middle of nowhere. You can stop it before it reaches its target and minimize the tragic loss of life.
But that being said, between phone calls coming off the plane and what I remember being reported about flight data, etc, the plane was essentially driven straight into the ground.
This would lend itself to the scenario that the passengers tried to regain control of the plane, but at some point realizing they would die before it happened, they chose to slam the plane into the ground instead.
On another note, kind of makes you wonder about the movie Millennium, doesn't it?
Actually, I don't know of anyone who takes the "it was an inside job" whackos seriously. Even the liberal Bush Hater Bill Maher had to throw the whackos off his HBO show a few weeks ago.
This particular item aside and to respond to Ann's post: What I can't understand is the enmity people express due to different political or religious beliefs. It's a shame Americans can't discuss these issues rationally. Getting more informed and keeping an open mind over the last several years has been to my benefit. Seriously, it works!
Mike
This particular item aside and to respond to Ann's post: What I can't understand is the enmity people express due to different political or religious beliefs. It's a shame Americans can't discuss these issues rationally. Getting more informed and keeping an open mind over the last several years has been to my benefit. Seriously, it works!
Mike
lmao i really can't stand bill maher but i was flipping channels and happened to catch that....cracked me up...i thought he was gonna kick that guys "do not bypass the swear filters"....what a hoot! bill maher finally made me laugh!
dee
dennis miller fan
dee
dennis miller fan
I feel like a science project!!!
“The syndrome is so common that it should be known to every physician.”
Dr Karl Ekbom, 1945
“The syndrome is so common that it should be known to every physician.”
Dr Karl Ekbom, 1945
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ViewsAskew
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- Joined: Thu Oct 28, 2004 6:37 am
- Location: Los Angeles
mikeyvon wrote:This particular item aside and to respond to Ann's post: What I can't understand is the enmity people express due to different political or religious beliefs. It's a shame Americans can't discuss these issues rationally. Getting more informed and keeping an open mind over the last several years has been to my benefit. Seriously, it works!
Mike
I couldn't agree more, Mike - though I certainly can (and do) still sometimes get too worked up about other people's opinions. It's certainly a strong goal of mine to get to the point I never do.
It's amazing how hard it is for us to "allow" other people their opinions - they can be threatening to us in so many ways. And to not take it personally when someone - especially someone we like - thinks about things differently than we.
I would love to see a space where people could debate without it turning into flaming or bad feelings. My DH is so good at this...I learn from him every day.
Ann - Take what you need, leave the rest
Managing Your RLS
Opinions presented by Discussion Board Moderators are personal in nature and do not, in any way, represent the opinion of the RLS Foundation, and are not medical advice.
Managing Your RLS
Opinions presented by Discussion Board Moderators are personal in nature and do not, in any way, represent the opinion of the RLS Foundation, and are not medical advice.
The nastiness in political discussions is an interesting thing, and I've noticed something pretty interesting about it.
In my life, I've been on both the left and the right. At the moment I'm not really either. I'm 180 degrees from "center", in the neighborhood of libertarians. (Note that that's not the same thing as the Libertarian party in this country, which is a somewhat wacky fringe group I don't wish to be associated with.)
When I was on the left, I found the people on the right jaded and cynical. Not usually overtly cruel or mean, just sort of unfriendly and uncaring. Selfish and cold. Not people I cared to hang out with, because they were stubbornly set in their views and wouldn't accept any of my arguments to the contrary. I found them obnoxious, they way they'd just sort of raise their eyebrows and shrug at me, like I was an idiot, when I tried to make a point. They'd say that yes, they understood my point, but that I was simply wrong.
Later, as I drifted right (shortly after I started to get paid well, unsurprisingly), I found the people on the left, who no longer considered me a pal, to be quite obnoxious themselves. The particularly interesting thing for me was that I had known them to be a group that cared and loved as an entire basis for their views and beliefs, yet, when they spoke to me as a right-wing guy, they were vitriolic, hurtful, and very mean-spirited towards me. They attacked me on a personal level, called me names, tried to hurt my feelings and dehumanize me. Even my supposed friends would do it. One of my good, long-time friends' wives was so rude, so directly and pointedly insulting to my character one time, that I took my leave of them and we haven't spoken since. (To this day I'm disappointed that my friend didn't stand up for me, or talk to me afterwards to try to mend fences.) My co-workers would speak loudly and insultingly of right-wing people in the halls at work, as if there were none around to hear, and as if you could say things about them that you could never say about a woman, or an ethnic minority, or for that matter pretty much anyone at all, without getting sued into the stone age. And they'd laugh about it as if it were okay, and obviously the correct thing to do, because right wing people are evil non-humans. I began to see the left as horrifically hypocritical, claiming to be caring and loving on the one hand, all the while cruelly pummeling me with the other for having a different point of view. It didn't take long to figure out that there was simply no speaking to them, or near them, about politics--they were vicious and would tolerate no disagreement with what they said. To disagree was to be the devil. I often had the feeling that they would have attacked me physically if weren't for society (mostly) forbidding such behavior. Do I sound like I'm exaggerating? I probably do. I'm not, though. I'm really not. I hope any of you on the left who are reading this treat your friends, co-workers, and acquaintances on the right better than I was treated.
It's fortunate now that, as someone who openly views both parties as being full of self-serving idiots who intend me no good, I don't tend to suffer these personal attacks anymore. I think it may be part of the whole "the enemy of my enemy is my friend" way of thinking. I know the hatred is still lurking under the surface, though. These people are only my friend as long as I agree with them, or as long as I disagree with that with which they disagree.
And people wonder why I'm cynical and jaded.
In my life, I've been on both the left and the right. At the moment I'm not really either. I'm 180 degrees from "center", in the neighborhood of libertarians. (Note that that's not the same thing as the Libertarian party in this country, which is a somewhat wacky fringe group I don't wish to be associated with.)
When I was on the left, I found the people on the right jaded and cynical. Not usually overtly cruel or mean, just sort of unfriendly and uncaring. Selfish and cold. Not people I cared to hang out with, because they were stubbornly set in their views and wouldn't accept any of my arguments to the contrary. I found them obnoxious, they way they'd just sort of raise their eyebrows and shrug at me, like I was an idiot, when I tried to make a point. They'd say that yes, they understood my point, but that I was simply wrong.
Later, as I drifted right (shortly after I started to get paid well, unsurprisingly), I found the people on the left, who no longer considered me a pal, to be quite obnoxious themselves. The particularly interesting thing for me was that I had known them to be a group that cared and loved as an entire basis for their views and beliefs, yet, when they spoke to me as a right-wing guy, they were vitriolic, hurtful, and very mean-spirited towards me. They attacked me on a personal level, called me names, tried to hurt my feelings and dehumanize me. Even my supposed friends would do it. One of my good, long-time friends' wives was so rude, so directly and pointedly insulting to my character one time, that I took my leave of them and we haven't spoken since. (To this day I'm disappointed that my friend didn't stand up for me, or talk to me afterwards to try to mend fences.) My co-workers would speak loudly and insultingly of right-wing people in the halls at work, as if there were none around to hear, and as if you could say things about them that you could never say about a woman, or an ethnic minority, or for that matter pretty much anyone at all, without getting sued into the stone age. And they'd laugh about it as if it were okay, and obviously the correct thing to do, because right wing people are evil non-humans. I began to see the left as horrifically hypocritical, claiming to be caring and loving on the one hand, all the while cruelly pummeling me with the other for having a different point of view. It didn't take long to figure out that there was simply no speaking to them, or near them, about politics--they were vicious and would tolerate no disagreement with what they said. To disagree was to be the devil. I often had the feeling that they would have attacked me physically if weren't for society (mostly) forbidding such behavior. Do I sound like I'm exaggerating? I probably do. I'm not, though. I'm really not. I hope any of you on the left who are reading this treat your friends, co-workers, and acquaintances on the right better than I was treated.
It's fortunate now that, as someone who openly views both parties as being full of self-serving idiots who intend me no good, I don't tend to suffer these personal attacks anymore. I think it may be part of the whole "the enemy of my enemy is my friend" way of thinking. I know the hatred is still lurking under the surface, though. These people are only my friend as long as I agree with them, or as long as I disagree with that with which they disagree.
And people wonder why I'm cynical and jaded.
Disclaimer: I often talk about what I do and what works for me, but these are specific to me and you should always consult a healthcare professional before trying these things yourself, lest you endanger your health or life.
Ailen, Honey your not "cynical and jaded", maybe just older and wiser.
The world has less gray areas than when we were younger. We see the world from where we started, from our parents and grandparents eyes.....and now we look at he future in much the same manner as they might have, when we were young and thought everything had an absolute to it.
I like to think wiser and older! But I totally understand where your coming from. The past year or so has been a real eye opening thing for me. It's not always PC to do the right thing. Sadly!
Lynne
The world has less gray areas than when we were younger. We see the world from where we started, from our parents and grandparents eyes.....and now we look at he future in much the same manner as they might have, when we were young and thought everything had an absolute to it.
I like to think wiser and older! But I totally understand where your coming from. The past year or so has been a real eye opening thing for me. It's not always PC to do the right thing. Sadly!
Lynne
Hi Aiken, Ann, Tazz, Becat
Man Aiken, I really found your post interesting. Like you, I've been on both sides of the political spectrum. The only difference is that I had recently moved from right to left. I was a die hard Republican all my life then about six years ago I made an abrupt move to the left based on both emotion and informed research. Looking back I don't regret many of my right leaning views, but I do regret having "blind devotion" to the Republican Party. I would feel the same if it were the other way around. I strongly feel that blind devotion to any idealology is not a good thing. Consequently, I constantly make an effort not to be devotee to the Liberal cause. The fact is, both sides are wrong on certain issues and it's my job to find out which ones are wrong based on research and common sense (or gut instinct like in the book "Blink"). I guess I'd call myself a free thinker with a moderate to strong tilt to the left. Actually, depending on what the Democrats do between now and November, a vote for McCain is not off the table.
Like you, I've also experienced some pretty mean spirited words from both sides during political discussions. I posted a story on this board a few years ago about the time my youngest brother tried to beat me up because I was bad-mouthing Bush. In fact, during my visit back home last Sunday he almost tried it again. If I hadn't bitten my tongue it would have gotten pretty ugly. Even though I'm easy going, only 140 pounds, and 59 years old, I still would have kicked his arse...he-he-he LOL.
Even though in general I find political and religious discussions get heated pretty quickly, I'm lucky enough to have a few groups of friends who can remain civil. And as a result we have fun and everyone is the wiser for it. A lot of what generates heat in a discussion is how you present your views. Things go nowhere if you go on the attack with cynicism, sarcasm, and a closed mind. Ya know, it seems that a good litmus test for a persons personality or friendship may be how a they react to a discussions on devisive/contentious issues (or maybe not).
And finally, I'll make a one political prediction. Being new liberal, I still think the us Democrats are a bunch of pussys. Even though their testicals grew a little since 2004, McCain will massacre us in November...ha-ha-ha LOL.
love mikey
Man Aiken, I really found your post interesting. Like you, I've been on both sides of the political spectrum. The only difference is that I had recently moved from right to left. I was a die hard Republican all my life then about six years ago I made an abrupt move to the left based on both emotion and informed research. Looking back I don't regret many of my right leaning views, but I do regret having "blind devotion" to the Republican Party. I would feel the same if it were the other way around. I strongly feel that blind devotion to any idealology is not a good thing. Consequently, I constantly make an effort not to be devotee to the Liberal cause. The fact is, both sides are wrong on certain issues and it's my job to find out which ones are wrong based on research and common sense (or gut instinct like in the book "Blink"). I guess I'd call myself a free thinker with a moderate to strong tilt to the left. Actually, depending on what the Democrats do between now and November, a vote for McCain is not off the table.
Like you, I've also experienced some pretty mean spirited words from both sides during political discussions. I posted a story on this board a few years ago about the time my youngest brother tried to beat me up because I was bad-mouthing Bush. In fact, during my visit back home last Sunday he almost tried it again. If I hadn't bitten my tongue it would have gotten pretty ugly. Even though I'm easy going, only 140 pounds, and 59 years old, I still would have kicked his arse...he-he-he LOL.
Even though in general I find political and religious discussions get heated pretty quickly, I'm lucky enough to have a few groups of friends who can remain civil. And as a result we have fun and everyone is the wiser for it. A lot of what generates heat in a discussion is how you present your views. Things go nowhere if you go on the attack with cynicism, sarcasm, and a closed mind. Ya know, it seems that a good litmus test for a persons personality or friendship may be how a they react to a discussions on devisive/contentious issues (or maybe not).
And finally, I'll make a one political prediction. Being new liberal, I still think the us Democrats are a bunch of pussys. Even though their testicals grew a little since 2004, McCain will massacre us in November...ha-ha-ha LOL.
love mikey
Guy's and ladies,
I'm 90% retired and right now the snowstorm here in "Pennsyltucky" has me locked in the house with nothing to do but post. I'm glad I left Ohio yesterday and not today. I guess I should get a life.
BTW, forget my comment and prediction at the end of my earlier post. I was using overstatement and a little cynicism to be funny...not to make a statement. I guess I'm not a funny guy LOL (some irony here?).
Fact is, the Dems are toughening up a little and the election in November should be close. Man this is interesting and fun to follow. Those Hillary/Barack debates should really be entertaining.
later, mikey
I'm 90% retired and right now the snowstorm here in "Pennsyltucky" has me locked in the house with nothing to do but post. I'm glad I left Ohio yesterday and not today. I guess I should get a life.
BTW, forget my comment and prediction at the end of my earlier post. I was using overstatement and a little cynicism to be funny...not to make a statement. I guess I'm not a funny guy LOL (some irony here?).
Fact is, the Dems are toughening up a little and the election in November should be close. Man this is interesting and fun to follow. Those Hillary/Barack debates should really be entertaining.
later, mikey