Article on Kratom

[erika13]

Hi jul2873,

Thank you so much again for all your fantastic info and posts. I have also been trying the D-Ribose and it seems to be helping too.
I just had a quick question, which brand of the Red Dragon Capsules (Kratom) are you using?
There seem to be so many brands out there!
Many thanks,
Erika

[jul2873]

Hi Erika,

I get all of my Kratom from Kratom Therapy.com, so I'm using their brand. However, I'm using almost all of their kinds now (that are in capsules). I mix them up in no particular order, and can't really tell a difference among them. Maybe if I paid more attention . . . I'm just hoping by mixing them I won't develop a tolerance as quickly. Some commenters online said they developed a slight tolerance at first, and then were able to stay at that level.

At this point, I'm using about five capsules a night, sometimes up to seven: one in the early evening, two right before bed, and two when I wake up--usually a couple of hours after I go to sleep. Sometimes I wake up a second time and take one or two more. When I wake up I usually have mild symptoms that maybe ten minutes of walking or exercises takes care of. Then I usually go right back to sleep. I guess if I took more I could get rid of those symptoms, but they aren't much of a bother, and I am trying to take as little as possible, and still get a good night's sleep.

Each capsule has 0.6 gram dose and I'm trying to stay under the 5 gram dose that I understand is the standard, beginning dose. But I've decided that I won't worry about it, and will take what I need to get a good night's sleep. Lots of people on the internet post about taking 15 grams or more, and don't seem to be having any side effects from it, but I think many don't take it every day. They take it to relax or feel a little high, and only use it a couple of times a week.

I had a wonderful experience last week. We flew to CA, and then to Reno for a family wedding. They we flew back to CA, then on to Chicago, and then back to the East Coast. With all of those flights, and limo rides, I was comfortable (occasionally one leg felt a little sore but with no urge to move it) except for two ten minute periods on the last flight home. It was late at night and I feel asleep twice. Upon waking both times I had mild symptoms for about ten minutes--not a big deal.

I used quite a bit of Kratom (for me) to make this work. I started taking two pills about two hours before each flight, and then two more pills every two hours while flying, or riding in a limo. So, essentially, about a gram every two hours. I had been dreading the flights because the last time I flew (BK--"before Kratom") it was a fairly short morning flight, but I was still miserable. So this was a huge change for me. I'm now making reservations to visit my daughter in Hawaii in July .

I figured I took up to six or seven grams on one of these flight days, but--the great thing--I had absolutely no side effects. No nausea, no feeling high, no nothing. Just a relief of the WED symptoms.

I hope you are doing well. Sometimes I get scared taking this much of a drug (I'm a 69 year old grandmother who has never even smoked pot) but it has make my life so much better than I'm not looking back.

Hope everyone is doing okay.

Mary

[badnights]

Mary how long is the time between taking a pill and noticing its effects?

[jul2873]

Good question. Apparently if you use the leaf, it's pretty quick, maybe 15 minutes. I use the capsules and it's longer, probably closer to an hour. Although if I have some already in my system, taking more seems to work faster. It's why I take one in the early evening, when I don't have much in the way of symptoms. and then the ones I take later seem to work faster. Actually, thinking about it, what seems to work fast at night is letting me go back to sleep, even while I'm having mild symptoms. It's hard to tell exactly when it starts working because I've learned to take it before I get bad symptoms and since I get no other effect from it, but relief from the rl and hyper feeling, there isn't some feeling that comes over me when it starts working--just an absence of rls and hyper feeling.

I'm sorry! I don't think I'm being much help!

[badnights]

No, that's very helpful. I would guess from your experience that someone might find relief within 15 to 60 minutes of taking a capsule, probably toward the longer end if they have not taken any yet that day.
thanks!

[erika13]

Hi Mary,

Thank you so much for all your incredibly helpful information! I've ordered the Kratom capsule (Red Dragon and another one), so I'll let you know how I go!

There was a really interesting study published today on the different levels of protein found in the cerebrospinal fluid of women with WED / RSL and women without WED/ RLS.

Here is a link to the study:

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/20 ... 223248.htm

Thanks so much again!

Erika

[EeFall]

I have used it on and off for about 5 or 6 years. There are a few things you should know up front about kratom. Be careful mixing it with other drugs, the interactions are not well known. It is illegal in several countries, mostly the countries from where it originates. It is a sedative, an upper, and a euphoric drug all at the same time. There is nothing else like it. At low doses below 4 grams it can actually make RLS worse because it acts more like a stimulant. I never take less than 7 grams (about a tablespoon) and I never take over 30 grams (which would make most people sick). I purchase 000 capsules (huge they hold about 1.4 grams) from eBay and there are a couple of capsule machines usually available there too for around $20. Much easier and cheaper to use. Eating it (toss and wash) sucks, it tastes terrible. Tea works a bit, but not nearly as well as consuming it.

I lived only on it with no other meds for months at a time when I had to and it kept my RLS pretty much under control BUT your tolerance level will go up and you will have to take more of it if you go that route. No matter what anyone tells you SOME people will have problems quitting kratom and SOME people will have withdrawals. Some people never feel a thing from kratom (thus they believe it doesn't work for anyone), others find it really powerful stuff (such as myself). I have been loath to mention it much on here because as the news spreads the more governments tend to become interested in regulating it. I only use it now for a backup in case my prescriptions don't get to me in time or if something drastic happens and I can't get any meds. I also use it when I have had zero or near zero sleep. It allows me to get through the day surprisingly well.

Be careful, some people can take it everyday and have no problems with it, some can't. The euphoria effect will eventually go away the longer you use it. Better to use it once a week to retain the full effect. There are varieties that work better than others, maeng da is my favorite but usually more money, green malay is good also. For some reason it varies by the individual, many like Bali more than I do. Buy from reputable places. Buying capsules that are prepackaged, well it depends on quality, you will not always get the best quality that way and it may be old. Best to buy powder leaf and cap it yourself for sure. I always buy powder, much easier to cap. Keep in tight containers and/or baggies in dark dry room temperature areas of home. Be careful of tinctures and other goodies, they tend to be more speedy and not good for RLS in my opinion, there is something missing in them and it costs a lot for what you get. That's my two cents

[jul2873]

Thanks for the link, Erika. The study is interesting. I'm so glad scientists are doing studies on it.

And Eefall, thank you for your information. For me, one gram, or even half a gram sometimes, definitely helps the restless symtoms, and that same amount also helps me sleep. Perhaps it's because I have a very low tolerance at this point.

I do worry about regulation, although I found out that it's been regulated since 1943 in Thailand--and that hasn't slowed production much at all. I read on Wikipedia that the Thai gov. is now trying to de-criminalize it. As for this country, the movement (think marijuana) seems to be away from regulation, at least I hope so. I'll have trouble respecting this country if it continues to allow 30 round clips and semi-automatics to be legal and makes kratom illegal. I could see regulations limiting the sale to people over 18, but that wouldn't worry me. It might be sensible, as it seems to be teenagers who are misusing it.

I see your point about keeping a low profile, but if efforts are make to criminalize the use of kratom here, the more people who are using it safely and for legitimate medical purposes, the harder I think it will be to criminalize its use. At least I hope so.

[erika13]

Hi Jul2873,

I hope you are still having success with the Kratom capsules. I started to build up a tolerance to the Poppy Seed tea (it worked so well there for a few months) so I tried the Kratom powder (Red Borneo Leaf loose powder) again and I'm finding it really effective. However, I notice that it’s quite stimulating and I am now having some insomnia with it. Have you noticed this?

I am taking a teaspoon before bed with juice and water. Maybe this is a stimulating dose?

I also found that the loose powder was much more effective than the capsules.

Do you take anything else with the Kratom? Kava Kava? Etc?

Thank you so much!

Erika

[jul2873]

Hi Erika,

If I remember, I also take 2 capsules of L-Tyrosine, and some d-ribose.

I am also using the powder now, and it does seem to be more effective. So far, I like the Green leaf one, but I'm really just starting to experiment. I usually take .5 tsp around 8 or 9, and then another .5 tsp right before bed. If the RLS is really acting up I'll take more--another .5 tsp. earlier. Then when I wake up around 2 or 3 I'll take another .5 tsp. So far, that is working well. I do have some of the red leaf powder and the one night I used it it didn't work as well--but it was a night when the symptoms were more severe, which may have been the problem.

I just hope it keeps working, as I am sleeping pretty well now. I do have good nights and not-so-good nights, but I can usually manage to piece together at least 6 hours of sleep, which seems to be enough for me. I use books on tape to put me to sleep, and during the times I'm up, I often watch videos on Amazon, as I have a Prime membership. I just watched all three seasons of Downton Abby--so much fun!

Anyway, my hope is that with this Johns Hopkins research they may come up with very good treatments. I'm just trying to hold on, and stay off of prescription meds until that happens.

[badnights]

jul2873, do you know if any info exists on what the effective chemical is in kratom and/or its equivalent dose in other opioids?

eefall, what's the diff between upper and euphoric?

It's intriguing that this substance is both a sedative and something that stops the WED sensations, which means that it deals with two aspects of WED: the hyper-vigilance, and the nasty sensations. (what about the urge to move? )

[jul2873]

Hi Badnights,

There is an article on wikipedia that talks about the composition of kratom:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mitragyna_speciosa

but I'm afraid it's all over my head. I do know that I don't get any high from it at all. If I take a good deal--which only happens when I'm flying--then I noticed that I do feel a nice sense of well-being. But the amount I normally take--a total of 5 grams or less to get me through a night--while taking care of the hyper-alert issue and most of the rl symptoms, does not give me a high at all. Sometimes it completely takes care of the rl symptoms and I think if I took more it would every night. But I'm trying to keep my dose as low as possible and I'm old enough (age 69) that I wake up in the night anyway.

For me it is a wonderful solution, as I don't seem to get any side effects at all. During the day I feel just fine, although I am enjoying the novel experience of being sleepy when I wake up and laying luxuriously in bed for a bit. Before the Kratom, the WED made me hyper-alert in the morning and often gave me rl symptoms as well. So I always had to get up the second I woke up (assuming I even slept).

Best to you,

Mary

[erika13]

Hi Mary,

Thank you so much for this!

I’ll also try spreading out my dosage! I’ll also experiment with the Green Leaf one too.

Can I ask, how many months / years have you been taking it?

Anyway, there are quite a few alkaloids in Kratom and it is from what I understand it is the only non-opioid to have an effect on opioid receptors.

The main alkaloid acts as an analgesic (pain reliever) and it also contains two other alkaloids which are smooth muscle relaxants.

Mitragynine: Approximately 66% of total alkaloid content found in Kratom leaf. It is analgesic (pain reliever).

Paynantheine: Smooth muscle relaxer. Approximately 9% of total alkaloid contents in Kratom leaf.

Speciogynine: Smooth muscle relaxer. Approximately 7% of total alkaloid contents of Kratom leaf.

There are a number of other alkaloids in varying amounts.

The alkaloid content of Kratom varies according to where it is harvested, what month, and which location. Some varieties tend to be more stimulating and others are more sedating.

I don’t feel any euphoria and I do feel a little tired in the morning, but I was having some very vivid dreams and some insomnia, but I think that I was taking a little more than a teaspoon before bed. I will reduce the dosage.

Me too, I am trying absolutely everything and am hoping to avoid being on prescription medications, or at least hold off for as long as I possibly can! I have been on an anti-inflammatory diet for about 15 years and I wish it were that simple. I am 44 now and it has been steadily getting worse. Unfortunately there seem to be so many complex underlying factors.

On a separate note, I know, isn’t Downtown Abby fantastic! I am so looking forward to the next season.

All the very best wishes,
Erika

[jul2873]

Hi Erika,

I've only been taking Kratom for about four months. Really, my RLS/WED only got very bad about two years ago. I'm sorry you've been dealing with it for so long, and you're so young.

I'm feeling a little tired in the mornings as well. I'm not sure if it's because the kratom makes me tired, or if because the kratom is taking care of the hyper feeling, and I'm naturally feeling tired, which I haven't for a number of years. The hyper feeling kicked in a number of years ago, well before the restless leg sensation. I think I'll start taking a bit more D-ribose, and see if that helps. At any rate, the tiredness is not a big deal.

I hope it continues to work for both of us. Since I've started taking it, I've found out that my son-in-law, who has a painful connective tissue disorder, uses kratom, as does one of my daughters, who gets panic attacks. They both prefer it to prescription meds.

Thanks for your notes. Nice to know it's working for someone else as well.

Mary

[jul2873]

A little update here:

I bought a gram scale to see how much kratom powder I was taking. It turns out the 1/2 a teaspoon equals .8 of a gram. So I am taking less kratom in a powder form than I was in capsule form. Each capsule is .6 of a gram, and I needed four of those before I went to bed, plus 6 more scattered throughout the night. Now I take 1/2 tsp. maybe three times during the night (2.4 gram total) and a little under one tsp. right before bed (1.6 gram). So the most I've been taking is about 4 grams a night.

I see that this is way under Eefall 's recommendation to start with 7 grams to feel the effect. Perhaps that is the threshold for a euphoric effect, but I find that 4 grams, spread throughout the night, controls the WED/RLS symptoms pretty well, and that's all I'm interested in.

Anyway, best to everyone. Hope that everyone is finding some way to control this lousy disease.