Article on Kratom

Here you can share your experiences with substances that are ingested, inhaled, or otherwise consumed for the purpose of relieving RLS, other than prescription medications. For example, herbal remedies, nutritional supplements, diet, kratom, and marijuana (for now) should be discussed here. Tell others of successes, failures, side effects, and any known research on these substances. [Posts on these subjects created prior to 2009 are in the Physical Treatments forum.]

Important: Posts and information in this section are based on personal experiences and recommendations; they should not be considered a substitute for the advice of a healthcare provider.
erika13
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Joined: Sat Apr 06, 2013 4:54 pm
Location: Tokyo, Japan

Re: Article on Kratom

Post by erika13 »

I just wanted to write an update.

I switched from the Poppy seed tea mid last year to Kratom powder. I build up a tolerance to the tea and it just stopped working after about 4 months, and I was reluctant to increase the dosage.

I have now been taking Kratom (Borneo Red Vein Fine Powder) for over seven months and it has been working incredibly well to control my WED. I have not increased my dosage over these past seven months.

I take about ½ teaspoon about an hour before bed and if I get up during the night, I’ll take an additional half a teaspoon of the powder mixed with some water and juice. I also have made some capsules for travel and late dinners, etc etc.

The red vein powder seems to have the strongest pain killing and sedating effects, and I am sleeping so well and for the first time in decades I am actually looking forward to going to bed!

I understand the hesitation by moderators and members of the board, as Kratom is not regulated. The side effects of so many of the prescriptions medications for WED seem miserable. On top of that, prescription drugs are regulated and taken as directed kill around 100,000 Americans a year.

I don’t seem to have any side effects and I don’t have any constipation, which generally accompanies most of the opioids. I know several people have mentioned the europhic effect, but I don’t get that at all .. I am taking a very sedating strain and all it does is seem to control the WED and help me sleep really well.

It certainly isn’t a cure as the WED comes back with a vengeance when I have stopped taking it. I have had two overseas trips in the past 7 months, both of which where Kratom is illegal (Australia and Thailand).

However, it truly has made the biggest difference to the quality of my life. I am sleeping 7 – 8 hours most nights.

I truly hope scientists get closer to understanding the exact mechanism and causes of this horrible disease, and in the meantime I am really hoping the Kratom will continue to work as well as it has.

ViewsAskew
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Re: Article on Kratom

Post by ViewsAskew »

I'm going to make two separate replies. First, I want to reply as a moderator about the comment that moderators seem hesitant.

Our job, as we see it, it to provide balanced information. We have a responsibility to make sure that this site provides accurate, well-rounded, and scientific-based information, when it's available and to point out when it is not. Some people wouldn't know that kratom is a drug, that it's not regulated, and because of this, that you can't be sure of your dosage, purity, or even if it's the drug you ordered. That creates its own set of issues. It's also important that people know that this is a drug - just not one available through a pharmacist. Some people believe that if it's natural or isn't sold through a pharmacist, that it's not a drug. That isn't what makes something a drug.

The moderators share information on the side effects of drugs and issues related to them; we share information about vitamins, about herbal preparations; and we share about anything else available that we are aware of. All of this is to allow people to make informed decisions, not to recommend something or try to gently (or not so gently) suggest that people treat their symptoms in a specific way.

It may seem that we recommend pharma and are do not recommend other drugs or treatments; I think it may appear this way because the only studies that exist are related to pharmaceuticals, so the only evidence we have is about that. But, we aren't recommending anyone take the drugs, rather sharing the results from the studies so that people can make informed choices. For treatments such as kratom, we have no scientific evidence (double blind study, well-designed, etc.). That's where our individual members come in. People can share what happened to them, giving people even more information and allow them to make the best choices they can.

Each member chooses his or her treatment based on what is most important to him/her. Availability, cost, side effects, drug testing in the workplace, legality, morality, and much more is part of that. As individuals with WED, the moderators might or might not be hesitant to try kratom, poppy seed tea, or any other non-pharma drug treatment; that isn't why we point out what we do, however. We are not judging anyone's choices and feel it's important that everyone realize that we're not. When we say that we would be hesitant to try something, it's just a personal choice - just as someone deciding to take it is a personal choice. It's not a recommendation or suggestion.
Ann - Take what you need, leave the rest

Managing Your RLS

Opinions presented by Discussion Board Moderators are personal in nature and do not, in any way, represent the opinion of the RLS Foundation, and are not medical advice.

jul2873
Posts: 445
Joined: Thu Nov 15, 2012 7:32 pm

Re: Article on Kratom

Post by jul2873 »

Thanks Ann and Erika. I'll just add that I've been taking Kratom daily for 10 months now. (Since, as Ann pointed out, there are no studies on this drug, I think it's even more important for those of us using it to share our experiences.) I think my WED may be more severe than Erika's as I need a bit more of it to get through a night. I also use 1/2 tsp. doses in juice, but take a dose in the early evening, before I go to sleep (around 10:30), when I wake up an hour or two later ( always wake up then--the WED pulls me out of sleep), and usually about 3 hours after that. So I normally take four 1/2 hour doses in a night. Sometimes the WED starts earlier, and I'll take a dose in the afternoon, as well, but usually--so far--I don't need that. I've been able to sleep a total of about 7 hours a night, and I usually work in a nap as well.

I do have some constipation with it, but that's the only side-effect. It really doesn't seem to effect me in any other way. I can drive, apparently pass drug tests (from what I read), and do everything else I normally do. I never feel hung over or nauseous or anything like that. I just hope it keeps on working so well.

Oh, I also prefer the red leaf Borneo strain. My preferred vender at this point is Velvet Soul.

ViewsAskew
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Re: Article on Kratom

Post by ViewsAskew »

erika13 wrote:I just wanted to write an update.

The side effects of so many of the prescriptions medications for WED seem miserable. On top of that, prescription drugs are regulated and taken as directed kill around 100,000 Americans a year.


Do you have a citation for this? I've been reviewing US CDC stats for a few weeks prior to your post (curious about drug deaths in general) and have not seen anything like this claim. The number surprised me, so I did more digging.

The most recent info I could find was from 2010 (in the US). The document said, "In 2010, a total of 40,393 persons died of drug-induced causes in the United States (Tables 10, 12, and 13). This category includes deaths from poisoning and medical conditions caused by use of legal or illegal drugs, as well as deaths from poisoning due to medically prescribed and other drugs. It excludes unintentional injuries, homicides, and other causes indirectly related to drug use, as well as newborn deaths due to the mother’s drug use."

Unfortunately, in hours of searching, I cannot find the number of unintentional injuries, homicides, and other causes indirectly related to drug use.It's simply not included in the tables.

I've seen a citation from the book, "Our Daily Meds" saying that 100,000 people die annually from taking pharmaceuticals, but I can't find any information on how she comes up with this number. This isn't close to the number reported by our states, though. For example, Iowa reported 5 deaths related to medication issues in 2008; yet she is claiming 100,000 that year. Since Iowa isn't our largest state - let's say that our larger sates - California, Texas, Illinois, New York, and Florida - had 200 each, many times more than Iowa reported, it still wouldn't come close to 100,000.

Without knowing how the author identified these, there is no way to know if this information is valid/reliable data.

I'm not saying it isn't true - the author cites that the numbers are incorrectly reported and that the drug companies have the power to skew the data. If that is true, you'd expect to see much higher numbers in places such as the EU, where the drug companies have a lot less control than here. But, I couldn't find stats for the EU that show high numbers of deaths, either. I could be searching for the wrong thing, however! If anyone has more information, please let us know.
Ann - Take what you need, leave the rest

Managing Your RLS

Opinions presented by Discussion Board Moderators are personal in nature and do not, in any way, represent the opinion of the RLS Foundation, and are not medical advice.

erika13
Posts: 30
Joined: Sat Apr 06, 2013 4:54 pm
Location: Tokyo, Japan

Re: Article on Kratom

Post by erika13 »

Hi Ann,

The figure of 100,000 deaths from adverse effects of pharmaceutical drugs is on the FDA’s own website:

http://www.fda.gov/Drugs/DevelopmentApp ... 114848.htm

Why Learn about Adverse Drug Reactions (ADR)?

Over 2 MILLION serious ADRs yearly
100,000 DEATHS yearly

Additionally, here is another paper published in the Journal of the American Medical Association (JAMA) that presents the figure of 106,000 deaths per year, in America, as a result of result of regulated pharmaceutical drugs.

Dr. Barbara Starfield is from Johns Hopkins School of Public Health.

Here are the key findings:

12,000 deaths from unnecessary surgeries; 

7,000 deaths from medication errors in hospitals; 

20,000 deaths from other errors in hospitals; 

80,000 deaths from infections acquired in hospitals; 

106,000 deaths from FDA-approved correctly prescribed medicines.

Here is a link to that specific paper:

The paper is fully cited as Starfield B. “Is US health really the best in the world?,” JAMA. 2000; 284(4):483-4.

Here is a link to the full PDF of this paper:

http://www.drug-education.info/documents/iatrogenic.pdf

ViewsAskew
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Re: Article on Kratom

Post by ViewsAskew »

Thank you! I understand now - these are adverse reaction deaths.

Some of the key statements I noticed include the following.

"Medication errors and ADEs are often the result of unique combinations of interactions among health care providers, patients, and medications." Sounds like it's essential that we question our doctors and do NOT take multiple drugs, particularly if we have multiple doctors.

"ADR deaths were significantly more likely in persons older than 55 years. The risk was greatest in those aged 75 years or older (OR 6.96, 95% CI 6.30 to 7.69). ADR deaths were higher among men than women."

"Rates varied by race and ethnicity and were highest among blacks (OR 1.38, 95% CI 1.23 to 1.54). Geographically, rates varied widely between states. Based on urbanization, rates were highest in extremely rural (non-core) areas (OR 2.05, 95% CI 1.76 to 2.38). The most common drug classes associated with death were anticoagulants, opioids, and immunosuppressants." It makes sense opioids are here because it's VERY easy to have problems when a doctor prescribes another drug that suppresses lung or heart function.

My uncle, a veteran and who has PTSD, was once taking 25 medications from 6 or 7 doctors. He tried to commit suicide. I learned, then, that this is not a good approach!!!!! Always make sure your doctors know everything you take and when a doctor prescribes something, remind them of anything you might be taking prescribed by someone else! And, always check your drugs in an interaction checker just to be sure. We can do a lot to prevent these problems by asking questions, providing accurate and thorough information, and being proactive.
Ann - Take what you need, leave the rest

Managing Your RLS

Opinions presented by Discussion Board Moderators are personal in nature and do not, in any way, represent the opinion of the RLS Foundation, and are not medical advice.

erika13
Posts: 30
Joined: Sat Apr 06, 2013 4:54 pm
Location: Tokyo, Japan

Re: Article on Kratom

Post by erika13 »

Sharing information and experiences are absolutely essential and I am so grateful to have found this forum and also to know that someone else is taking it daily too. The first time I tried Kratom, it didn't seem have any effect, but I persevered thanks to the information shared by Mary. Thank you Mary!

Unfortunately I very much doubt that any clinical trials or certainly no double blind cross over studies on Kratom will be done, as natural products can’t be patented, unless they isolate one of the alkaloids. Which is why these forums are absolutely critical for sharing all sorts of information that could possibly be of some sort of help.

I actually first heard of Kratom from an American guy on the Australian forum. At the time I was posting about Poppy Seed Tea.

Here is his post and another one that mentions that Kratom is related to Tramadol.

by ‪Marcus » Tue Feb 12, 2013 4:54 am
I've found that any of the opiates will bring RLS discomfort to an end entirely. I guess it depends on a person's tolerance for that kind of stuff. There is a natural herb that mimics the effects of opioids and which knocks down RLS like nothing else I've tried. It's called Kratom and it can be purchased through various websites. A teaspoon of crushed kratom powder and RLS is out the window. It's sort of a poppy seed tea lite for those who don't tolerate painkillers very well.

by ‪twitchycripple » Wed Mar 20, 2013 8:33 pm
I used to do a lot of research on ethnobotanicals, and I remember reading how Kratom (usually found in Thailand) is related to tramadol. Tramadol has been used to treat RLS so I hear (I'm new to the forum, but have been an RLS sufferer for around seven or eight years. I've used tramadol for pain (mild relief) but it never made any difference to my RLS. Just fyi Kratom is illegal in all states of Aus.

badnights
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Re: Article on Kratom

Post by badnights »

I will report briefly on my experience with kratom. But first, let me say that I have both cautioned people to regard kratom as a drug, and directed people seeking alternative medicine to the posts here about kratom. Advising caution is not to be confused with hesitancy :)

I take 18 mg hydromorph contin daily. The amount has been creeping up steadily from the 9-12 mg I started at in 2010. I have generally felt that kratom would be a better option for someone who did not have access to opioid medications, and were not likely to be of benefit to me when compared to the controlled amount of known substance I was getting by prescription. However, my natural curiosity about plant remedies, as well as my desire to have a fall-back, got the better of me, and I ordered powdered leaf of three types: Red Vein Borneo, Thai Ultra Premium Enhanced, and Maeng Da. I ordered from amazon, reselling for mood&mind and Gold of Sunshine.

I have only tried it twice, which is why I was waiting to post. But here it is. Both times I used the Maeng Da, in the evening when my symptoms were not controlled by my meds. First time was as a tea, 1 tsp steeped for 20 minutes or so, and more water poured over the powder and re-steeped for the heck of it. I felt a very mild "alteted" state within 10 minutes, and symptoms retreated (diminished). These effects lasted less than an hour. Second time was mixed in juice and choked down. It took 30 minutes before I noticed any effect, which was again a mild and somehow unpleasant alteration in my state of mind and my symptoms had also lessened somewhat by then. I don't have notes on how long that one lasted, because I took my meds at the same time and they would have kicked in about 1.5 hr later. iirc, the juice effect was not as strong (in terms of WED relief) as the tea.

Factors that may have affected my response: the second (juice) test was earlier in the evening when my symptoms were probably stronger. For both tests, I had my 6 PM dose of meds still in my body, so these were not by any means clean trials - they were intended at the time to see if the kratom could help with breakthrough symptoms. I don't in general trust or enjoy altered states of mind, so that might account for how I interpreted the effect as unpleasant. Taking it as an infusion ("tea") was clearly faster acting than ingesting it, perhaps because the active substances are released in the hot liquid? Maeng Da is supposed to be more potent, but that is from people seeking a high, so it is not necessarily the best variety for WED or pain relief.

In general, I was not impressed. Next time, I may try 3-4 tsp in tea. I will stick to Maeng Da for that, then try one of the others for comparison.
Beth - Wishing you a restful sleep tonight
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I am a volunteer moderator. My posts are not medical advice. My posts do not reflect RLS Foundation opinion.

jul2873
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Re: Article on Kratom

Post by jul2873 »

Hi Beth,

Thanks for posting. Your experience is very interesting. My only comment at this point would be to caution you against taking 3-4 tsp. at one time. I have pretty much limited my dose to .5 tsp although, when my symptoms are especially troublesome, I may take two or three doses (of half a teaspoon) within the space of three or four hours. But the other night when my symptoms came back quickly after two doses, about an hour apart, I took a dose of a full teaspoon, and didn't feel very well. I was a little nauseous, and felt very hot, for about ten minutes. It did take care of the RLS symptoms, and I fell asleep after that ten minutes--and slept until morning--but it made me nervous about taking even a full teaspoon at one time. The most I'll take now, at one time--and this is only when my symptoms are very obdurate--is three-quarters of a teaspoon, which works fine. But, generally, I try to keep my dose at half a teaspoon. I let the kratom stand in a little orange juice for twenty minutes, and it dissolves and is easy to swallow.

I realize that since you are taking other medications that it most likely is working differently. Oh, I've also read that the "high" people experience with higher doses quickly requires ever higher and higher doses--unlike the doses required to deal with chronic pain, which most non-high people seem to use it for. I don't get a high at all although--after the amount I'll take to get through a long plane ride--I do feel a little mellow sometimes.

But my advice about doses would be to first try taking small doses closer together before trying larger doses.

Mary

badnights
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Re: Article on Kratom

Post by badnights »

Hmm - so again 1 tsp and then 30 minutes later another tsp and then another?
I might just go ahead and try 2 tsp and see what happens. I want something that works for breakthrough, so something that's effective in less time than the 1.5 hr I wait for my regular meds to kick in.
I suspect I am more opioid-tolerant than you because of the hydromorphone I take.
That's good news about the altered state going away after a few times.
Beth - Wishing you a restful sleep tonight
Click for info on WED/RLS AUGMENTATION & IRON
I am a volunteer moderator. My posts are not medical advice. My posts do not reflect RLS Foundation opinion.

jul2873
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Re: Article on Kratom

Post by jul2873 »

Well, actually, when my WED is really acting up, a small dose (plus a few minutes of walking around) will usually work, but then in an hour the symptoms will return and I'll do it over again. This just happen maybe once a week from around 12 a.m. to about 3 a.m. Other than that, one dose (and my doses are usually a half a tsp.) at night will hold for 2-3 hours, or longer. And if I get symptoms in the afternoon, one dose will usually hold me until eight o'clock at night. Of course, on an airplane all bets are off :). What is it about air travel??

I've tried to figure out how many grams a tsp. is, and I get different weights. I think the Maeng Da is denser and seems to weigh more. A tsp. of that is about 3 grams, I think, whereas one tsp. of other strains seems more like 2 grams. So 3 or 4 tsps of Maeng Da is 9 to 12 grams, which is quite a big dose. I try to keep my total intake of kratom down to a total of 5 grams over a 24 hour period. But, as you said, you may be more opioid-tolerant. Good luck!!

erika13
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Joined: Sat Apr 06, 2013 4:54 pm
Location: Tokyo, Japan

Re: Article on Kratom

Post by erika13 »

Hi Beth,

I would also like to add that I take Kratom in half-teaspoon doses and if I take too much more and I feel nauseous. I put it in a little shaker and add water with a little pomegranate juice.

I haven’t tried it personally, but from what I understand the Maeng Da strain tends to be more stimulating.

For the past 8 months I have been using the “Borneo Red Vein" strain, which is the most sedating and has the highest pain killing properties.

The Borneo Red Vein strain contains relatively more Mitragynine (one of the main alkaloids in Kratom) compared to other strains, and this alkaloid is known for its analgesic (pain killing) properties. It is also used as a relaxant and sleep aid and I have to say, I haven’t slept this well since I was a child!

I don’t have any euphoria or feel like I am in an altered state, just very relaxed.

Each strain differs quite a bit depending on exactly what region they were grown and how they are harvested etc etc and each has a very unique alkaloid content.

I suspect the hydromorphone would also have had an impact on tolerance and response as well.

jul2873
Posts: 445
Joined: Thu Nov 15, 2012 7:32 pm

Re: Article on Kratom

Post by jul2873 »

Hi Beth,

Now you have me worried! The only reported deaths from Kratom, that I'm aware of, are when it is mixed with other drugs. But then the combination can be lethal. The mixture I read about was with--I think--tramadol, but I am not up on all of the various names for opioids, so I'm not sure. Here's one link: http://jat.oxfordjournals.org/content/35/4/242.long

So anyway, please be careful.

Best,
Mary

badnights
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Re: Article on Kratom

Post by badnights »

Thanks for the info and the warning :)
I will ditch the Maeng Da for sure (too bad that's the one I have the most of).
I based my choice of quantity on this post viewtopic.php?f=1&t=8376&p=70258&hilit=kratom+tsp#p70258 which suggests that 1 tsp would be 1.6 g (roughly).

Since i tried 1 tsp without trouble, I am probably OK trying 1 tsp of the Red Vein Borneo. But to be safe, I will try it in the daytime when my hyrdomorphone level is at its lowest - right before my first evening dose, and I'll delay or forgo that dose.
Beth - Wishing you a restful sleep tonight
Click for info on WED/RLS AUGMENTATION & IRON
I am a volunteer moderator. My posts are not medical advice. My posts do not reflect RLS Foundation opinion.

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