Medical Marijuana

Here you can share your experiences with substances that are ingested, inhaled, or otherwise consumed for the purpose of relieving RLS, other than prescription medications. For example, herbal remedies, nutritional supplements, diet, kratom, and marijuana (for now) should be discussed here. Tell others of successes, failures, side effects, and any known research on these substances. [Posts on these subjects created prior to 2009 are in the Physical Treatments forum.]

Important: Posts and information in this section are based on personal experiences and recommendations; they should not be considered a substitute for the advice of a healthcare provider.
Orrel
Posts: 101
Joined: Sun Jun 15, 2014 12:23 am

Re: Medical Marijuana

Post by Orrel »

I am trying to understand the effect of medical marijuana on dopamine production. While marijuana appears to
stimulate the production of dopamine in the short term, I get the impression that the chronic use of marijuana may eventually blunt
the response of the body to dopamine. This suggests that the chronic use of medical marijuana may not be such a
good move for rls sufferers. As I am thinking of using medical marijuana for the longer term, would I be setting myself
up for a d.a.type disaster where what starts out as a friend becomes a very big enemy???

NatWest
Posts: 162
Joined: Wed Jan 06, 2010 7:06 pm

Re: Medical Marijuana

Post by NatWest »

I did a google search for this topic and and found many posts, here is a quote from one of them, which first mentioned the negative effects of alcohol, heroin, cocaine, and some other drugs on dopamine levels, "Cannabis users can breathe easy, however, as cannabinoids are believed to have the opposite effect. Likewise, a study published in 2012 found that long-term cannabis consumption does not result in permanent changes in dopamine levels." It said cannabis increases dopamine levels while you use it. If you stop there may be a temporary decrease, but that levels will quickly return to normal. I did not read every post, as there were hundreds, but read 5 or 6, and they all indicated the same thing, which is what I'd read before, but wanted to look up that specific topic before answering. There may be other answers out there, but I didn't come across any in the linked I clicked on. Hope this helps!

Orrel
Posts: 101
Joined: Sun Jun 15, 2014 12:23 am

Re: Medical Marijuana

Post by Orrel »

NatWest: Thanks for the info. I read many of the google posts and came to the
same conclusion that long-term cannabis usage does not result in permanent changes
in dopamine levels. I also wonder if marijuana will provide any relief for those withdrawing
from dopamine agonists. Here in Canada it is hard to find a physician who will prescribe
opioids for this.

NatWest
Posts: 162
Joined: Wed Jan 06, 2010 7:06 pm

Re: Medical Marijuana

Post by NatWest »

In my experience, I was able to lessen the withdrawal symptoms by using MM while I was doing it. The symptoms were unavoidable, and it took about 3 days before they disappeared, but by taking MM during the process, symptoms were milder, though I still spent 3 nights pacing around the house. Yet, nothing like previous times when I changed medications because of augmentation, and had to go completely off, then wait 3 days before starting the new medication. That was torture, this was more like a temporary inconvenience. For me. I know everyone is different when it comes to rls.

Orrel
Posts: 101
Joined: Sun Jun 15, 2014 12:23 am

Re: Medical Marijuana

Post by Orrel »

NatWest: May I ask what you now take for your rls? I have been approved for MM and am waiting for
the arrival of my order of MM. I plan to use it to blunt the effects of the augmented Neupro patch which
are quite severe. If MM works for this, then I will use it to help me withdraw from the patch. Once that
is accomplished, I plan to use MM as maintenance monotherapy. But I have no idea as to how much MM to take
or when to take it over a 24 hour period.

Rustsmith
Moderator
Posts: 6466
Joined: Sat Sep 28, 2013 9:31 pm
Location: Colorado Springs, Colorado

Re: Medical Marijuana

Post by Rustsmith »

Orrel, what are the severe effects that you are experiencing from augmentation on Neupro? I am curious since I also appear to be augmenting after about a year and a quarter on Neupro. I will probably be working to get off of it in a bit over a month from now, but I am fortunate to have a doctor who believes in opiates as the next level of treatment. MM is also not currently an option for me since it is not legal for RLS in the state where I live.
For me, the augmentation is appearing as an increasing frequency of losing control of the urge-to-move symptoms. I also am beginning to believe that the insomnia issues that drove me to a search during the past year of all the current developments in sleep aids has also been a side effect of the Neupro from the beginning.
Steve

https://www.mayoclinicproceedings.org/a ... 0/fulltext
Opinions presented by Discussion Board Moderators are personal in nature and do not, in any way, represent the opinion of the RLS Foundation, and are not medical advice.

Orrel
Posts: 101
Joined: Sun Jun 15, 2014 12:23 am

Re: Medical Marijuana

Post by Orrel »

The urge to move is quite uncontrollable. It involves my legs, my arms and my torso. It is as if someone were jabbing me
with a cattle prod. I put the patch on at 9:00 p.m. It used to last 24 hours and give me relative relief. Now I get some rls breakthrough
as soon as early afternoon although it is not constant at that time. The evenings are becoming more and more problematic.
The nights can be extremely difficult. The only good time is between the time I get up (which varies according to how much sleep
I get during the night but usually between 8:00 and 9:00 a.m.) and the early afternoon when rls often appears.
During the night, I try to "walk it out" by going on a ten minute walk through the house, often three times.
Sometimes it is successful and the rls calms down to allow me to sleep before it flares up again.
I probably average about four hours of very disjointed sleep. I have an appointment to see Dr. Earley
at Johns Hopkins in early September. In the meantime I thought i would give MM a try. I hope this info helps.
Feel free to ask any more questions. Helping others walk this very lonely road is for me of the utmost importance.

Rustsmith
Moderator
Posts: 6466
Joined: Sat Sep 28, 2013 9:31 pm
Location: Colorado Springs, Colorado

Re: Medical Marijuana

Post by Rustsmith »

Thanks, that answered my questions. My current experience is somewhat similar except that I was instructed to change patches first thing in the morning so that it was sort of in an established dose at bedtime rather than getting the somewhat renewed dose after changing patches. I too have been experiencing breakthroughs that simulate my initial problems before I started any DA. I intend to get an appointment with Dr Ondo sometime later this month. In our last contact, he said if 4mg Neupro stopped working, my next step would be methadone.
I should also add that four hours of sleep is a good night for me. I went back over my logs and found that this started about the time when I changed from pramipexole to Neupro. But there were other changes around that time as well, so I will not be able to be positive that it was the Neupro until I get off of it.
I also am planning a trip in September so that I can experiment with MM. Even if it works perfectly and I decide to move to a state where it is legal, I am still going to need an alternate medication simply because MM is not legal everywhere and I tend to travel quite a bit, both domestically in the US and Internationally. Even the methadone with a prescription could be problematic in some of the places that I have gone in the last couple of years, so I may need two backups.
Steve

https://www.mayoclinicproceedings.org/a ... 0/fulltext
Opinions presented by Discussion Board Moderators are personal in nature and do not, in any way, represent the opinion of the RLS Foundation, and are not medical advice.

Orrel
Posts: 101
Joined: Sun Jun 15, 2014 12:23 am

Re: Medical Marijuana

Post by Orrel »

I am only on the 2 mg patch. The 3 mg. patch is the highest recommended level. When 2 mg began to work less well,
I went up to 4 mg but didn't see a lasting benefit. I returned to 2 mg because of fear of augmentation. The higher the dose
the greater the chance of augmentation and the greater the difficulty in weaning off has always been my understanding.
I am interested in finding out what my baseline rls is after getting off the d.a. Some find it is not too bad. If it is determined
that I need an opioid, I do have a contact who said she would help. She is one of the go-to persons for pain management in
Canada and practises locally. I am loath to start opioids because of what I read although Dr. B seems to suggest that
such fears are overblown. The potential for addiction, and for tolerance that requires ever higher dosages, makes me
hesitate. So far as travel is concerned, maybe we could use a d.a. for a short period of time without fear of augmentation.
My wife and I rarely are away for more than two weeks.

NatWest
Posts: 162
Joined: Wed Jan 06, 2010 7:06 pm

Re: Medical Marijuana

Post by NatWest »

Good morning, Orrel. I am just reading through your posts and those of Rustsmith. I am realizing that my symptoms have never been as severe as either of you have had and are having. For the last two years I had been on Pramipexole (Mirapex), and had reached the point where I was having symptoms all day long, they were never painful, but I would call them unbearable in other ways. Previously I had tried Requip, Neurontin, Lyrica, and a number of other things, but only the Requip had worked, and then only until augmentation took over. But I have never had the degree of symptoms you are describing.

I am currently taking Cannatonic tincture with a glycerine base. It is .60mg CBD and 1.08 mg THC. I take 2 droppers full at bedtime, and if symptoms wake me up in the night, I'll take a dropper more, or use the vapor pen, but have not had to do either recently. The vapor pen is CBD Critical Mass, made by the CO2 Company. It is CBD 54.6% and THC 22.9%. It is easy to use and works almost instantaneously, and can help get through the withdrawal. The Cannatonic works in a few minutes. There is also a Cannatonic tincture with an ethanol base, which tastes horrible, but does work just like the glycerine based tincture. I tried it first, but switched because of the taste. They both come in 2 oz bottles and 1 oz bottles. I buy the 2 oz. It lasts about one month and costs $25.00 here in Oregon. The vapor pen cartridge costs $40, and lasts up to 6 months. I'm still using the first one I bought in March. I only used the vapor pen for the first 2-3 months, then tried my first bottle of Cannatonic in May after reading about it. I just bought my second bottle yesterday, and probably won't open it for a couple more days, but wanted to be sure I had it on hand. (I know prices vary depending where you live.) The thing with both the tinctures and the vapor pen is you can take as much as you need to, as often as you need to, and adjust to the dosage that works for you. The tincture might make you sleepy, I don't know because I've never taken it during the day. The vapor pen does not. Neither makes me feel high. There are other forms of Cannatonic available, such as smoking in a pipe, which I haven't tried. It might be very good, because when inhaled it would work almost instantaneously.

I've tried to answer your questions as thoroughly as I can. I hope it helps. I'll be happy to answer any additional questions. Please let me know how things go as you progress to the MM. What type did you order? Hopefully, you will not need to take things that would require additional withdrawal. I wish you the best.

Orrel
Posts: 101
Joined: Sun Jun 15, 2014 12:23 am

Re: Medical Marijuana

Post by Orrel »

NatWest: Here in Canada, we can only legally buy the dried marijuana plant which is put in a vaporizer and
the fumes are inhaled. It is not possible to buy the edibles or cannabis oil but it is no longer illegal to have them if
you make them yourself.I have ordered the following for vaporizing from a Canadian company Medreleaf which has a partnership
with a large Israeli company Tikun Olam: AviDekel THC: 04-1.2% and CBD: 14-17%
Midnight THC: 8-11% and CBD:11-14%
I plan to start with Avi Dekel at around 6:00 p.m. for evening symptoms and 10:00 p.m. for night symptoms and during the night if needed.
It was suggested that I use Midnight during the day because of its higher TBC.

NatWest
Posts: 162
Joined: Wed Jan 06, 2010 7:06 pm

Re: Medical Marijuana

Post by NatWest »

Orrel, thanks for the update on your order and plans. Those all sound very good, with the high CBD ratio to THC. I'll be thinking good thoughts for you. For me, MM has immensely changed my life for the better.

Rustsmith
Moderator
Posts: 6466
Joined: Sat Sep 28, 2013 9:31 pm
Location: Colorado Springs, Colorado

Re: Medical Marijuana

Post by Rustsmith »

I have a question for the two of you since your areas both have legal MM. How do you handle the DUI issue? I have looked at the laws in Colorado, Washington and Oregon (at least the proposals to change them). But what the law says and how the police enforce them in the absence of an accident or other reason to stop can be two different matters.
That is part of the reason why I have been looking at the very low THC products like Orrel's AviDekel as the first sort of thing to try during my trip.
Steve

https://www.mayoclinicproceedings.org/a ... 0/fulltext
Opinions presented by Discussion Board Moderators are personal in nature and do not, in any way, represent the opinion of the RLS Foundation, and are not medical advice.

NatWest
Posts: 162
Joined: Wed Jan 06, 2010 7:06 pm

Re: Medical Marijuana

Post by NatWest »

I haven't heard of any DUI arrests in our area for MM. That doesn't mean there weren't any, but people around here have smoked it recreationally for decades, even though it won't be legal until July 1, and you just don't hear much about it. The varieties I take don't make me high at all. Even though they contain THC, the CBD tends to over ride it and cancel it out. So that's been my personal experience with it. Let us hear what you learn on your trip.

Orrel
Posts: 101
Joined: Sun Jun 15, 2014 12:23 am

Re: Medical Marijuana

Post by Orrel »

Rustsmith: Like NatWest, I haven't heard of any DUI's around here (southern Ontario) because of MM.
I just wish the stuff I ordered would arrive so I could test it out. I look forward to the day when MM
is available in the same way as it is in Colorado You are okay if you make oils and edibles yourself.
You just can't buy these forms of MM ready made. DUH?!? Why not if it is not illegal to possess them.

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