Medical Marijuana

Here you can share your experiences with substances that are ingested, inhaled, or otherwise consumed for the purpose of relieving RLS/WED, other than prescription medications. For example, herbal remedies, nutritional supplements, diet, kratom, and marijuana (for now) should be discussed here. Tell others of successes, failures, side effects, and any known research on these substances. [Posts on these subjects created prior to 2009 are in the Physical Treatments forum.]

Important: Posts and information in this section are based on personal experiences and recommendations; they should not be considered a substitute for the advice of a healthcare provider.
wantok
Posts: 63
Joined: Fri Apr 01, 2016 3:14 pm

Re: Medical Marijuana

Postby wantok » Mon Aug 19, 2019 2:29 pm

That is kind of what I am thinking. I hope to find something where the high is as tolerable as possible and then just get into it or at least accept it. I did try Granddaddy Purp (vaping) and one toke got me high for two hours (not horrible horrible, but still was wishing it was over and too stoned to do anything) and then, as promised, I did sleep for several hours. During the high my PLMS was strong (not often but strong), but I slept through whatever was or wasn't happening. But today I am going to the annoying dispensary to try and find something that might put me out ASAP.

I am sure you have written elsewhere, but what marijuana concoction do you use?

(I know we are all different: last night I tried expensive CBN for the fourth night which is supposed to be so great for sleep, and I even read some places for muscle spasms--didn't help me.)

QyX
Posts: 475
Joined: Wed Mar 13, 2013 12:53 pm
Location: Berlin / Germany

Re: Medical Marijuana

Postby QyX » Sat Aug 24, 2019 12:44 pm

I don't think there will be anything that will put you out right away. The way it works for me is that I have to experience some kind of high for about 2 hours. Normally I already feel somewhat tired and a bit sedated during this time but there are other effects who keep me awake. And only after 90 to 120 minutes are passed I am starting to feel tired in a normal way.

But sometimes I don't feel tired enough and I need another dose. And how much I need in also depends a lot on my mood and how I felt in general during the day.

I inhale Cannabis using a medical grade vaporizer. The dose is much easier control than with using edibles. The first strains I used only had between 6 and 12% THC. I started low and later went to more potent strains. I wrote a lot about my experience in the prescription drug forum section since here in Germany I need a narcotic prescription to be able to buy Cannabis in a pharmacy.

At the moment I am using a combination of the brand Bedrocan (between 19,5 and 23,5% THC so far, sativa dominant strain, imported from the Netherlands) and Pedanios 20/1 (20 to 23,8% THC so far, indica dominant strain, imported from Canada).

It did take me awhile to get used to high potent Cannabis. Just use strains with less than 10% THC and only start using more potent strains when they are not effective more. I also take a small amount of CBD (roughly 10 mg) in the evening since it seems to boost the hypnotic properties of Cannabis.

When you don't have much experience with Cannabis, some effects of the THC can be unpleasant. Just be careful with the dose. Some of the unpleasant effects disappeared for me after a few weeks and months.

Use a vaporiser because it makes Cannabis much easier to dose. It is so easy to get a massive overdose from edibles.

Maybe ask at the shop which strains are normally tolerated very well by beginners.

Get sativa and indica dominant strains and see if there is a difference for you. My experience so far is that sativa strains affect more my mind while indica strains affect more of my body. To be able to sleep I need to combine them. If I only use one product, it still will take many hours until I can finally sleep.

When you use Cannabis products for a longer time, you will better understand how Cannabis affects you and what you like and do not like. Since everyone is different and everyone responds to Cannabis in a different way, too, there is really no other option than trial & error.

There are strains I really do not like and who for example did cause anxiety or made me thinking / reflect about myself in a negative way.

Oh and I noticed it too, that during the first 1-2 hours I sometimes have increased RLS symptoms. But this also depends on the products used. I am currently experimenting with Bakerstreet, a brand that was recommended to me by German RLS patients and it seems to increase my RLS symptoms a bit for the first 1-2 hours.

For me personally, the high I experience in the hours before I sleep is much better than having to deal with insomnia and all the RLS symptoms conventional drugs can't treat.

Here is the Cannabis discussion I started in the prescription drug forum: viewtopic.php?f=4&t=10329

(It has been quite a journey for me)

NatWest
Posts: 155
Joined: Wed Jan 06, 2010 7:06 pm

Re: Medical Marijuana

Postby NatWest » Sat Aug 24, 2019 6:31 pm

Thanks for your post. For the last 2-3 weeks I’ve been working on combining several things, starting with using a vapor pen for a couple of hits of a 50-50 thc-cbd mixture that activates in 15 minutes and lasts about 60-90 minutes, then, after 15 minutes, I take a couple of tinctures of a 50-50 solution, which lasts for 2-3 hours, so has a longer lasting effect. And as soon as I take the tincture, I take a gummy, which takes up to 2 hours to activate, but will work for up to 4 hours. This seems to be working, though it will all wear off in about 4 hours. I try to repeat the tincture and gummy before they’ve worn off, and end up feeling pretty rested. Hopefully I’ll be able to continue this for a while before things disappear from dispensaries and formulas change.

wantok
Posts: 63
Joined: Fri Apr 01, 2016 3:14 pm

Re: Medical Marijuana

Postby wantok » Mon Aug 26, 2019 8:00 pm

Thanks for the useful input. I haven't worked it out yet, but the amazing thing is I can take 60 drops of THCA when the leg movements come on in the evening and they will go away in just over 1/2 hour. Doesn't last is the problem, but I can go to sleep initially which is very new since my PLMD usually won't let me. Have to work in some kind of gummie or something that lasts longer.

wantok
Posts: 63
Joined: Fri Apr 01, 2016 3:14 pm

Re: Medical Marijuana

Postby wantok » Thu Aug 29, 2019 10:19 pm

Do you have a method for repeating the tincture and gummy before they've worn off? I am thinking of taking 5mg gummy a couple of hours before bed and then another 5mg 4 hours later (thinking it will kick in about 6 hours after the first 5mg). Maybe even setting an alarm? which seems so strange since now I am waking up every hour or so.

NatWest
Posts: 155
Joined: Wed Jan 06, 2010 7:06 pm

Re: Medical Marijuana

Postby NatWest » Thu Aug 29, 2019 10:59 pm

It varies from night to night, but generally I start about an hour before going to bed and try to give it, whether tincture, or vapor pen, or gummies, time to start activating. Some take only 15 minutes, some gummies take 2 hours. So I try to keep something going, and around 2 am I’ll start taking second helpings, all based on activation time and how long they keep working once they activate. For the most part, it may vary a bit, it seems like each night is a little different right now. This probably isn’t much help in answering your question, since it varies. I’m hoping I can come across something that’s more consistent and dependable.

wantok
Posts: 63
Joined: Fri Apr 01, 2016 3:14 pm

Re: Medical Marijuana

Postby wantok » Fri Aug 30, 2019 4:47 pm

Early report after 10 days:
THCA tincture (THCA is not psychoactive, but the same as THC) one and a half droppers kicks in after an hour or two and stops PLMD shaking. (Testing if it kicks in sooner sublingually; that dose is pretty big for under the tongue however.)
5mg indica gummy kicks in after 1.5 hours (longer if my stomach is full) and it makes me high but does extend sleep groups.
Important as Natwest has said: take the second dose of anything in anticipation -- don't wait till the shaking starts up again or you lie around waiting for sleep to come). So far this has been a problem for me as the stuff tastes lousy and I always want to take less, but I need to get over this. Also, I think I may still be withdrawing from Trazadone which I quit cold turkey necessarily because it was exacerbating my shaking.
Another impression: seems my PLMD is worse now, that the marijuana almost worsens it in that I would "normally" not have problems all night but now I have to take the marijuana throughout the night or the shaking WILL start up for sure.

NatWest
Posts: 155
Joined: Wed Jan 06, 2010 7:06 pm

Re: Medical Marijuana

Postby NatWest » Fri Aug 30, 2019 7:49 pm

The plmd adds a whole new dimension to the treatment, I think. The foundation website lists neurologists who specialize in rls and some related conditions and tells what cities they are in. You might try looking there for someone who could give you specific help with the combination. The things I am doing are only to attempt to treat my rls. Though others who are posting here may be able to answer your questions. I know I’ve read many posts mentioning these related conditions.

Rustsmith
Moderator
Posts: 4086
Joined: Sat Sep 28, 2013 9:31 pm
Location: Pueblo, Colorado

Re: Medical Marijuana

Postby Rustsmith » Sat Aug 31, 2019 12:40 am

From the research that I have read recently, I think that the researchers (especially those looking at genetics) are starting to believe that PLMD is a subset of RLS. Certainly, most of us with RLS also have PLMD. That said, there is little research specifically looking at PLMD, which is surprising since PLMD is far easier to measure and diagnose. Most of the PLMD treatments match those of RLS.
Steve

Augmentation Evaluation http://bb.rls.org/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=9005

Opinions presented by Discussion Board Moderators are personal in nature and do not, in any way, represent the opinion of the RLS Foundation, and are not medical advice.

NatWest
Posts: 155
Joined: Wed Jan 06, 2010 7:06 pm

Re: Medical Marijuana

Postby NatWest » Sat Aug 31, 2019 1:22 am

Thanks for the info, I didn’t know that.

wantok
Posts: 63
Joined: Fri Apr 01, 2016 3:14 pm

Re: Medical Marijuana

Postby wantok » Sat Aug 31, 2019 8:47 pm

I have been to see Dr. B. He started out by saying PLMD is difficult to successfully treat (or some such encouraging word) and never recommended anything that wasn't standard for RLS patients. I have found lately that my RLS is worse, again maybe because I am withdrawing from so many drugs (at least I hope it might pass).

As to the genetics--I am interested in what research you are referencing Steve--I just had my genetic testing done at the recommendation of a functional doctor who said she could tell me what meds I likely would be sensitive to. Turns out I have a mutation at CYP2D6 and a number of the drugs listed I have had paradoxical reactions to or they caused my symptoms to get worse or I just couldn't tolerate them. She suggested that maybe this mutation might be shared by other RLS/PLMD sufferers. CYP2D6 is involved with dopamine production or absorption in some way.

Rustsmith
Moderator
Posts: 4086
Joined: Sat Sep 28, 2013 9:31 pm
Location: Pueblo, Colorado

Re: Medical Marijuana

Postby Rustsmith » Sat Aug 31, 2019 9:59 pm

wontak, there have been quite a few GWAS (genome wide analytical surveys) that have identified about 20 genes that correlate with RLS. But I do not remember seeing CYP2D6 on the list although I do remember seeing questions here about it in the past. The MEIS1 gene is the one that has the strongest correlation. In fact, there was a TV ad for 23andMe that featured MEIS1 and the "sleep gene" and showed a woman tossing around on the bed.

Here is one that I was scanning earlier today: https://www.frontiersin.org/articles/10.3389/fneur.2019.00935/full

If you go to Google Scholar and search on "restless legs syndrome" and GWAS or genetics, you will find quite a number of publications.
Steve

Augmentation Evaluation http://bb.rls.org/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=9005

Opinions presented by Discussion Board Moderators are personal in nature and do not, in any way, represent the opinion of the RLS Foundation, and are not medical advice.

wantok
Posts: 63
Joined: Fri Apr 01, 2016 3:14 pm

Re: Medical Marijuana

Postby wantok » Sun Sep 01, 2019 6:34 pm

Thanks, Steve.

Note on THCA: if you heat it or cook with it, it becomes THC and psychoactive. I learned from my trip to Oregon that the THCA tincture I am using (Jade Nectar brand) is grown in the Santa Cruz mountains and only available in California and I have been unable to find a THCA tincture in Oregon.

QyX
Posts: 475
Joined: Wed Mar 13, 2013 12:53 pm
Location: Berlin / Germany

Re: Medical Marijuana

Postby QyX » Sun Sep 01, 2019 6:46 pm

Hi Steve,

CYP2D6 is not a gene but rather an enzyme that is part of the cytochrome P450 complex. I guess what you mean are the genes that encode CYP2D6?

wantok
Posts: 63
Joined: Fri Apr 01, 2016 3:14 pm

Re: Medical Marijuana

Postby wantok » Mon Sep 02, 2019 8:45 am

Cytochrome P450 2D6 (CYP2D6) is an enzyme that in humans is encoded by the CYP2D6 gene.


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