Medical Marijuana

Here you can share your experiences with substances that are ingested, inhaled, or otherwise consumed for the purpose of relieving RLS/WED, other than prescription medications. For example, herbal remedies, nutritional supplements, diet, kratom, and marijuana (for now) should be discussed here. Tell others of successes, failures, side effects, and any known research on these substances. [Posts on these subjects created prior to 2009 are in the Physical Treatments forum.]

Important: Posts and information in this section are based on personal experiences and recommendations; they should not be considered a substitute for the advice of a healthcare provider.
Scooter
Posts: 5
Joined: Sat Jul 20, 2019 12:16 pm

Re: Medical Marijuana

Postby Scooter » Tue Feb 11, 2020 1:44 pm

I am new to this Discussion Board so sorry if I am covering a topic prviously addressed.

I am looking for a reliable for med marijuana guidance in deciding what products to buy for RLS and Insomnia. I am familiar with the Leafy website - https://www.leafly.com/strains/lists/condition/insomnia. Is there something else available thru the RLS Foundation..or elsewhere?

QyX
Posts: 627
Joined: Wed Mar 13, 2013 12:53 pm
Location: Berlin / Germany

Re: Medical Marijuana

Postby QyX » Tue Feb 11, 2020 2:02 pm

Unfortunately there is no such guide. I wrote about my own experience with medical marijuana in great detail here:

viewtopic.php?f=4&t=10329

I also name a number of strains that work best for me. In general it is a lot of trial and error to find the products that work best for you, however I can give you some general recommendations based on my own experience and what I learned here in the forum.

1) It seems that a decent amount of THC is necessary to have a significant effect on RLS symptoms and insomnia

2) even so, I still supplement the vaping of Cannabis with oral CBD. Without additional CBD, THC is not effective for me long term. It also seems that when I do not use additional CBD, THC alone has the potential to make my RLS symptoms worse.

3) the strains I use all have roughly between 19 and 25% of THC with less than 1% CBD. However such high potent strains might be too strong when you are just starting out. I would recommend starting with strains who do not have more than 10% THC and then start to work your way up from there.

4) both, indica and sativa strains can work for RLS with indica strains seem to have better analgesic and sedative properties. However there are also indica strains who do not sedate me at all. It always depends on the individual profile of a certain strain.

5) sativa strains with a strong Haze genetics work best for my insomnia. However there are also 1-2 indica strains who seem to be able to help with my insomnia, just not as good as sativa strains with strong Haze genetics.

6) I would recommend buying a device to vape the full cannabis flowers. If you need more coverage through the night, you can also try adding edibles. Personally I am not a big fan of edibles because their bioavailability is a bit unpredictable and it can take 3-5 hours until you have the full effect. With vaping you get the full effects within 10 to 20 minutes.

7) There is most likely no other way than to experiment. Everyone has their own individual reaction to certain strains and I often find, that the reviews on pages like leafly.com do not match my own experience. in

Rustsmith
Moderator
Posts: 4463
Joined: Sat Sep 28, 2013 9:31 pm
Location: Pueblo, Colorado

Re: Medical Marijuana

Postby Rustsmith » Tue Feb 11, 2020 7:42 pm

Scooter, part of deciding what you need depends upon how you intend to use the MJ to supplement the rest of your meds. The first question is the delivery system.

1) Inhaled (vape don't smoke) can provide an almost immediate impact, but the effects also tend to wear off more quickly than tinctures or edibles. Inhaled also allows you to select from a variety of strains where the others are processed and therefore do not provide as many options when at the dispensary.
2) Tinctures provide their benefit fairly quickly (in a couple of minutes). You can purchase various THC:CBD ratios and this is probably the best way to get a significant dose of CBD. Since this is a refined product, the primary options are the ratio and sometimes the flavoring added. I am currently using a 20:1 CBD:THC product for anxiety that came after I was taken off of Tramadol too quickly. I can feel the anxiety leave my body before I finish the 2 minutes required for the tincture to adsorb under the tongue.
3) Edibles come in a wide variety of products. Most only contain THC. As Qyx said, it can take from 3 to 5 hrs for the THC effects to kick in when using edibles, which is why so many people over do it with edibles. They eat a brownie and 30 minutes later think that it hasn't done anything, so they eat another. Then they get a double whammy when both finally kick in and they cannot even stand up. But I use this property to my advantage at night. I eat a small gummy candy at the same time as I take my evening RLS meds. The meds help me fall asleep, but tend to wear off around 1AM. That is when the "time delay" of the edible kicks in and allows me to stay asleep until morning.

So, each delivery system has its use and you just need to decide what you want to accomplish and how each might best fit into your RLS treatment program.
Steve

Augmentation Evaluation http://bb.rls.org/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=9005

Opinions presented by Discussion Board Moderators are personal in nature and do not, in any way, represent the opinion of the RLS Foundation, and are not medical advice.

NatWest
Posts: 162
Joined: Wed Jan 06, 2010 7:06 pm

Re: Medical Marijuana

Postby NatWest » Tue Feb 11, 2020 8:49 pm

What I’ve been using for the past few months, is a thc tincture. I would say it works well 80% of the time. I take the first dose about an hour or 2 before I go o bed. Then again whenever I wake up due to rls. It’s not perfect, but is the best I’ve found so far. All thc, zero cbd.

Peggy

QyX
Posts: 627
Joined: Wed Mar 13, 2013 12:53 pm
Location: Berlin / Germany

Re: Medical Marijuana

Postby QyX » Tue Feb 11, 2020 10:50 pm

Steve, I wonder the tinctures you are using, are those full extracts from Cannabis strains in an oily solution?

The oral products I have tried so far are CBD oil, 2,5% THC oil and Sativex spray. The spray takes 3-5 hours until it has a significant effect, just like edibles and while the THC oil I had worked much faster, it is still nowhere near the time you describe. I mean, I can recognise some minor effects after maybe 10 - 20 minutes but the real onset takes at least a 90 - 120 minutes.

Sativex is supposed to be absorbed oral mucosa but that really didn't work for me at all. It even often happened that I had to eat something, before the Sativex dose finally "activated". It was quite annoying and unpredictable because who wants to eat every day at the same time exactly the same? Bioavailability of oral THC & CBD can also be significantly increased when some kind of fata is consumed at the same time.

I noticed that when I was using Sativex and then directly eating afterwards, it was often possible to double the effect and therefore reduce the required dose quite significantly. But to do this every day is just not practical.

So I am really curious how the tinctures you use work. Pharmacies here in German can produce certain tinctures and extracts. It could be, that they can replicate the kinds of tinctures you are using.

Rustsmith
Moderator
Posts: 4463
Joined: Sat Sep 28, 2013 9:31 pm
Location: Pueblo, Colorado

Re: Medical Marijuana

Postby Rustsmith » Tue Feb 11, 2020 11:56 pm

Qyx, the tinctures available in Colorado are plant based oils (coconut, palm and/or sunflower) with the THC and CBD added. The products I have seen in the store include just THC, 1:1 THC:CBD, 1:10 THC:CBD, 1:20 THC:CBD, 1:30 THC:CBD and just CBD (from hemp so virtually no THC). I have a friend who owns a lab that does extractions and he said that the try to extract the THC and CBD to as close to pure as the chemistry and economics allows. The "pure" CBD and THC are then compounded back into the tinctures and edibles.

A year or so ago, I heard a presentation by a Pharmacy professor at the Univ of Colorado who has been studying the effects of marijuana for various conditions, including RLS. She stated that for CBD works best there needs to be at least a little bit of THC present.

On a humorous note, I was looking at the websites for a couple of stores in my area today. I saw a listing for a tincture that has Salmon flavoring. After the initial shock and revulsion, I looked a bit closer and found that the product is intended to be given to dogs and cats, not humans.
Steve

Augmentation Evaluation http://bb.rls.org/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=9005

Opinions presented by Discussion Board Moderators are personal in nature and do not, in any way, represent the opinion of the RLS Foundation, and are not medical advice.

stjohnh
Posts: 1053
Joined: Sun Feb 14, 2016 3:13 pm
Location: Palo Alto, California

Re: Medical Marijuana

Postby stjohnh » Wed Feb 12, 2020 4:34 am

I've never used tinctures, but the definition of a tincture is the active ingredient is dissolved in alcohol, not oil.
Blessings,
Holland

QyX
Posts: 627
Joined: Wed Mar 13, 2013 12:53 pm
Location: Berlin / Germany

Re: Medical Marijuana

Postby QyX » Wed Feb 12, 2020 10:36 pm

Ye, that's what my marijuana doctor has told me too, that for CBD to work best, it needs a small amount of THC present. My personal THC to CBD ratio is probably 10:1. To me it feels like it is the THC who allows me to fall asleep but then it is the CBD who actually manipulates my sleep in a way that I experience as restful.

And while marijuana seems really great for all core symptoms of RLS, especially the way it boosts the analgesic effects of opioids, the longer I use Cannabis, the more I start to dislike the intoxicating effects of it. The way it affects my memory during the stoned phase really really annoys me. But when I use less, I don't sleep. And when I don't sleep, I don't get anything done at all and I start to feel depressed and anxious.

My doctor says the amount I am using (roughly 0,5g of marijuana with 20% THC per day) is at the lower end of the spectrum but it still feels like a lot. This is what the main advantage of opioids is: I never felt any high or intoxication from them except mild sedation in the first few months. But with Cannabis, it doesn't seem like I am developing a tolerance against the high.

Lately I've been having more and more days where I just don't want to vape marijuana at night because I am busy with something interesting ... but then of course I have to sleep and when I realise this ultimately, it is already way too late and I destroy my day - night rhythm over and over again.

Do you experience a significant high from the tinctures you are using or is it more of a mild sedation and you fall asleep before you notice any major intoxication?

At the moment I hope that when I finally will get the iron infusion, I will need less THC to fall asleep.

Rustsmith
Moderator
Posts: 4463
Joined: Sat Sep 28, 2013 9:31 pm
Location: Pueblo, Colorado

Re: Medical Marijuana

Postby Rustsmith » Thu Feb 13, 2020 1:26 am

I do not experience any sort of high with the 10:1 CBD:THC or the higher CBD blends. There simply isn't enough THC in the tincture to cause any high or even sedation. I have been taking it for anxiety that stems from being taken off of an anti-depressant far too quickly at Christmas.

Since the tincture doesn't help with sleep, I eat an edible with 5mg THC just before going to bed. That is combined with 900mg gabapentin, which helps me fall asleep and then the THC helps me stay asleep. If I have to get up during the night, I feel very unsteady from the THC. I don't stay up long enough to be able to judge whether I have any other symptoms of being high and almost always fall asleep once I get back into bed.
Steve

Augmentation Evaluation http://bb.rls.org/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=9005

Opinions presented by Discussion Board Moderators are personal in nature and do not, in any way, represent the opinion of the RLS Foundation, and are not medical advice.

NatWest
Posts: 162
Joined: Wed Jan 06, 2010 7:06 pm

Re: Medical Marijuana

Postby NatWest » Thu Feb 13, 2020 1:40 am

Hi Steve,

I’m glad to hear you are finding some relief. I was taking a 50:50 tincture for a while, but switched to a 100% thc tincture about 2 months ago. What I’m finding/concluding in the 5 years since the prescription meds stopped working, is that it’s all very unpredictable for me. I saw someone was posting about the iron infusion. I’ve had a hard time finding anyone here who can do it. Hopefully, we’ll get someone here again who can.

Thanks for your post.

Peggy

stjohnh
Posts: 1053
Joined: Sun Feb 14, 2016 3:13 pm
Location: Palo Alto, California

Re: Medical Marijuana

Postby stjohnh » Thu Feb 13, 2020 2:20 am

NatWest wrote:... I saw someone was posting about the iron infusion. I’ve had a hard time finding anyone here who can do it. Hopefully, we’ll get someone here again who can.

Thanks for your post.

Peggy


Perhaps you mean "will do it?" Any licensed MD in the USA can do it, just most won't.
Blessings,
Holland

NatWest
Posts: 162
Joined: Wed Jan 06, 2010 7:06 pm

Re: Medical Marijuana

Postby NatWest » Thu Feb 13, 2020 2:32 am

I’ve looked them up—the doctors who can do the infusions—and there aren’t any here where I live. There was one several years back, but not right now. It’s something that I have been wanting to try, and even got permission from my doctor, but then couldn’t find anyone to do it. I went to one who seemed to know what my doctor was requesting, but then demonstrated that they really had no clue. If I am ever able to get an infusion done, I will post about it.

Peggy


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