Kratom- avoiding addiction/intelligent use/other's experiences

Here you can share your experiences with substances that are ingested, inhaled, or otherwise consumed for the purpose of relieving RLS/WED, other than prescription medications. For example, herbal remedies, nutritional supplements, diet, kratom, and marijuana (for now) should be discussed here. Tell others of successes, failures, side effects, and any known research on these substances. [Posts on these subjects created prior to 2009 are in the Physical Treatments forum.]

Important: Posts and information in this section are based on personal experiences and recommendations; they should not be considered a substitute for the advice of a healthcare provider.
ethan
Posts: 43
Joined: Mon Apr 04, 2016 2:39 pm

Kratom- avoiding addiction/intelligent use/other's experiences

Postby ethan » Tue Jul 05, 2016 6:55 pm

All,

As noted in another thread, I am off medications and only using kratom. I am taking 5-7 grams before bed (depending on strength of batch) and then I take another gram at 3:30 am. The larger dose certainly has a psychoactive effect. The lower dose wasn't helping me fall asleep but was controlling my movements. Obviously I am taking this every night. I have read that daily use can result in tolerance and addiction.

I read some real horror stories of addiction- but it seems like these folks were taking high doses every day and throughout the day. Their stories still scare me.

Any thoughts welcome!

Thanks,

Ethan

Rustsmith
Moderator
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Joined: Sat Sep 28, 2013 9:31 pm
Location: Pueblo, Colorado

Re: Kratom- avoiding addiction/intelligent use/other's experiences

Postby Rustsmith » Tue Jul 05, 2016 8:41 pm

I don't know very much about the use of kratom. It did not do much for me last year when I tried it, but I was seriously augmenting at the time and probably was not using enough. But I do have a couple of thoughts for you about addition.

1. Addiction and physical dependence are two different things. Addiction is where you would be willing to steal from family members or complete strangers in order to get the next dose. Dependence is where you need that next dose in order to avoid an unpleasant or dangerous condition. By that definition, a type 1 diabetic is dependent upon that next "fix" of insulin and most of us are dependent upon our meds. Most of us would not steal from those we love, even when we are severely sleep deprived.
2. Studies have been done on the potential for true addiction of RLS patients to opiates. Those studies have not found that there is a significant potential for addiction. Maybe this has to do with the fact that we know we need to keep our dose as low as possible because we will need the med for the rest of our lives and maybe it has something to do with the genetics that make us prone to RLS.
3. There are genes that increase the likelihood that an individual will become addicted to a substance. If you have that gene, it does not matter if the substance is alcohol, illicit drugs, prescription drugs or kratom. If it is in that individual's genes, they would be playing with fire to use a potentially addicting substance. But fortunately, those genes are not common except in a few "racial" groups.
Steve

Augmentation Evaluation http://bb.rls.org/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=9005

Opinions presented by Discussion Board Moderators are personal in nature and do not, in any way, represent the opinion of the RLS Foundation, and are not medical advice.

stjohnh
Posts: 309
Joined: Sun Feb 14, 2016 3:13 pm
Location: Palo Alto, California

Re: Kratom- avoiding addiction/intelligent use/other's experiences

Postby stjohnh » Wed Jul 06, 2016 1:40 pm

I take 0.125mg mirapex, 50mg gabapentin, 720mg Kratom and 14mg THC 2 hours before bed. I take 50mg gabapentin, 360mg Kratom and 7mg THC approximately 4 to 5 hours later. It took a couple of months of nightly experimentation before I was able to settle on this combination of medicines at these doses. Most nights I get 7 or 8 hours sleep, once a week or so I get only 4 or 5.

I was able to sleep with a higher dose of Kratom alone, but I felt run down the next day at a dose of Kratom high enough to control my leg jerking and sleeplessness. I was also able to sleep only 2 hours before needing the next dose of Kratom. I was never able to take more than about 3 grams a dose due to feeling nauseated. Kratom alone also made me somewhat constipated.

The Kratom in my current combination helps me sleep only a little but does make it so that I can use a smaller dose of mirapex. THC in combination with the Kratom makes it easy to fall asleep and stay asleep. The very low dose of Gabapentin helps my sleep quality, in that I awake more refreshed. Higher doses of Gabapentin make me feel totally zonked the next day.

I don't have a specific answer to avoiding addiction and dependence, however I am trying to avoid any dose escalation, and my current dosage of each of these medicines is fairly low.

I buy my kratom in one kilogram batches to avoid having to frequently adjust the dose due to batch to batch variation.

When I was using Kratom alone I was using doses about what you are using, but the control of my leg jerking and my ability to sleep was nowhere as good as the combination I currently use. I used approximately 1.5g three to four times nightly.
Blessings,
Holland

ethan
Posts: 43
Joined: Mon Apr 04, 2016 2:39 pm

Re: Kratom- avoiding addiction/intelligent use/other's experiences

Postby ethan » Wed Jul 06, 2016 2:34 pm

Rustsmith wrote:I don't know very much about the use of kratom. It did not do much for me last year when I tried it, but I was seriously augmenting at the time and probably was not using enough. But I do have a couple of thoughts for you about addition.

1. Addiction and physical dependence are two different things. Addiction is where you would be willing to steal from family members or complete strangers in order to get the next dose. Dependence is where you need that next dose in order to avoid an unpleasant or dangerous condition. By that definition, a type 1 diabetic is dependent upon that next "fix" of insulin and most of us are dependent upon our meds. Most of us would not steal from those we love, even when we are severely sleep deprived.
2. Studies have been done on the potential for true addiction of RLS patients to opiates. Those studies have not found that there is a significant potential for addiction. Maybe this has to do with the fact that we know we need to keep our dose as low as possible because we will need the med for the rest of our lives and maybe it has something to do with the genetics that make us prone to RLS.
3. There are genes that increase the likelihood that an individual will become addicted to a substance. If you have that gene, it does not matter if the substance is alcohol, illicit drugs, prescription drugs or kratom. If it is in that individual's genes, they would be playing with fire to use a potentially addicting substance. But fortunately, those genes are not common except in a few "racial" groups.


Steve,

I really appreciate this response. You are right- I need something to help me with this condition- that is a dependency. I took opiates for 6 months for this condition and had no problems.

I would add another thing here. I recently read a book called "Chasing the Scream" that looks at the causes of addiction and the drug war. It is an amazing book (I listened to the Audible version). He makes a pretty compelling case for addiction being related to early childhood trauma.

Here is his TED talk:
https://www.ted.com/talks/johann_hari_e ... anguage=en

ethan
Posts: 43
Joined: Mon Apr 04, 2016 2:39 pm

Re: Kratom- avoiding addiction/intelligent use/other's experiences

Postby ethan » Wed Jul 06, 2016 2:43 pm

stjohnh wrote:I take 0.125mg mirapex, 50mg gabapentin, 720mg Kratom and 14mg THC 2 hours before bed. I take 50mg gabapentin, 360mg Kratom and 7mg THC approximately 4 to 5 hours later. It took a couple of months of nightly experimentation before I was able to settle on this combination of medicines at these doses. Most nights I get 7 or 8 hours sleep, once a week or so I get only 4 or 5.

I was able to sleep with a higher dose of Kratom alone, but I felt run down the next day at a dose of Kratom high enough to control my leg jerking and sleeplessness. I was also able to sleep only 2 hours before needing the next dose of Kratom. I was never able to take more than about 3 grams a dose due to feeling nauseated. Kratom alone also made me somewhat constipated.

The Kratom in my current combination helps me sleep only a little but does make it so that I can use a smaller dose of mirapex. THC in combination with the Kratom makes it easy to fall asleep and stay asleep. The very low dose of Gabapentin helps my sleep quality, in that I awake more refreshed. Higher doses of Gabapentin make me feel totally zonked the next day.

I don't have a specific answer to avoiding addiction and dependence, however I am trying to avoid any dose escalation, and my current dosage of each of these medicines is fairly low.

I buy my kratom in one kilogram batches to avoid having to frequently adjust the dose due to batch to batch variation.

When I was using Kratom alone I was using doses about what you are using, but the control of my leg jerking and my ability to sleep was nowhere as good as the combination I currently use. I used approximately 1.5g three to four times nightly.



Holland,

When I started with Kratom I was using less...in combination with cannabis. The cannabis really helped with falling asleep. I had to take a break from cannabis for employment reasons- but will be able to go back to it in a few weeks. I found Gabapentin and Horizant (at conventional doses) also zonked me the next day- big time. I really like the approach of low doses of the meds- should I find that kratom starts losing effectiveness I will do this.

How do you store the Kratom? My understanding was that it will lose potency over time. The vendor I am using (Botanical Wellness) has 1 pound as their largest purchase option. Who are you buying it from?

Thank you!!

Ethan

stjohnh
Posts: 309
Joined: Sun Feb 14, 2016 3:13 pm
Location: Palo Alto, California

Re: Kratom- avoiding addiction/intelligent use/other's experiences

Postby stjohnh » Wed Jul 06, 2016 4:22 pm

I now buy from SoCal herbal remedies
https://www.socalherbalremedies.com/product/red-borneo/
Note that "kratom" is used nowhere on their web site. If you want to browse, search on "speciosa" $85/kilo.

I divided it into 250g piles and put into glass jars with good sealing lids. I keep one out for making capsules, the other 3 I put in freezer.
Blessings,
Holland

ViewsAskew
Moderator
Posts: 14643
Joined: Thu Oct 28, 2004 6:37 am
Location: Chicago

Re: Kratom- avoiding addiction/intelligent use/other's experiences

Postby ViewsAskew » Wed Jul 06, 2016 5:58 pm

I've tried many vendors and spent a lot of time trolling at Reddit to see who people liked as vendors. SoCal Herbal is number 1 in my book. I like that I can get different types at a reasonable price to see how they work, as well as buy a large quantity. Now, if it only controlled my RLS as well as it does many of you! But, it does help me to stay asleep, so I'll take that - and happily!
Ann - Take what you need, leave the rest

Managing Your RLS

Opinions presented by Discussion Board Moderators are personal in nature and do not, in any way, represent the opinion of the RLS Foundation, and are not medical advice.

ethan
Posts: 43
Joined: Mon Apr 04, 2016 2:39 pm

Re: Kratom- avoiding addiction/intelligent use/other's experiences

Postby ethan » Wed Jul 06, 2016 6:53 pm

Wow what I price difference! I have been ordering from Botanical wellness and paying $95 per pound....more than double the price. This forum is the best!

tea4one
Posts: 43
Joined: Thu Feb 24, 2011 6:43 pm

Re: Kratom- avoiding addiction/intelligent use/other's experiences

Postby tea4one » Wed Jul 20, 2016 3:15 am

Wondering how "racial" groups have anything to do with genetics, Steve (rustsmith). Maybe I'm misunderstanding.

Rustsmith
Moderator
Posts: 2457
Joined: Sat Sep 28, 2013 9:31 pm
Location: Pueblo, Colorado

Re: Kratom- avoiding addiction/intelligent use/other's experiences

Postby Rustsmith » Wed Jul 20, 2016 11:25 am

jkendrick, individual genetic changes tend to track through different "racial" groups. In fact, it is the genetics that define the physical features that we often use to define these groups and this is what the commercial genealogy DNA companies use to determine our ancestry. If you pay one of these companies to determine your ancestry, one of the genes that was included in the tests that I had done was a gene indicates an increased potential for addiction. Just as the genetic changes that define blond hair and blue eyes is more prevalent in those of us with northern European ancestry, the gene for increased sensitivity for addiction has been found to be more prevalent in specific "racial" groups.
Steve

Augmentation Evaluation http://bb.rls.org/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=9005

Opinions presented by Discussion Board Moderators are personal in nature and do not, in any way, represent the opinion of the RLS Foundation, and are not medical advice.

tea4one
Posts: 43
Joined: Thu Feb 24, 2011 6:43 pm

Re: Kratom- avoiding addiction/intelligent use/other's experiences

Postby tea4one » Thu Jul 21, 2016 7:33 am

It seems like it would be difficult to say an entire race is more or less prone to addictive behaviors, but maybe there's something to it.


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