Location of RLS Symptoms Changing

For everything and anything else not covered in the other RLS sections.
Frunobulax
Posts: 431
Joined: Mon Jun 02, 2014 7:41 pm

Re: Location of RLS Symptoms Changing

Post by Frunobulax »

XenMan wrote:
Mon Sep 28, 2020 9:16 am
As my RLS is from oxalates, symptoms occur when oxalates are broken down though exercise or general oxalate dumping. I have nerve and the corresponding muscle trigger points. It seems the oxalate leaves the nerves and makes them ‘unhappy’ and they activate the corresponding muscles, which then create the motor sensory discrepancy for symptoms to exist. I can press the nerves to stop symptoms or treat the muscles.

My symptoms move all over place with oxalate dumping with some easy, and others very difficult to treat.
Interesting. Oxalates do explain different locations. But is there a mechanism why symptoms would appear in the legs (as they do for most mild cases)? Maybe for the same reason that gout often is connected to inflamed toes, for blood circulation reasons (I assume) that cause gout crystals to form there? Food for thought.

My symptoms have always been symmetrical, either both legs, or both arms, or whole body. I never really thought about this before. Maybe I assumed that my legs are under more stress/pressure or whatever, as symptoms were confined to my legs until I augmented. But this clearly doesn't explain why I would get "restless arms" (with no symptoms in my legs) when I tried Gabapentin. But always both arms, too.

My dream was always to have a huge RLS database, and do a statistical analysis on that. Enter what treatments helps (for example anything with pressure/massages or heat), which supplements did or did not help, which drugs are effective, sensations (painful RLS or "electric" RLS)... I wouldn't be surprised if we would find different stereotypes of RLS, that may be due to different underlying root causes. Could it be that people with asymmetrical symptoms (only one leg at a time, for example) have different root causes than people with symmetrical locations (where it could be more likely that the issue is in the brain and not in the extremities)?

XenMan
Posts: 116
Joined: Sun Aug 26, 2018 7:41 pm

Re: Location of RLS Symptoms Changing

Post by XenMan »

Frunobulax wrote:
Mon Sep 28, 2020 7:35 pm
But is there a mechanism why symptoms would appear in the legs (as they do for most mild cases)?
This is not only an interesting question but also difficult to even really speculate on other than the ideas you came up with. I previously thought it was the limited flexibility due to biomechanics that impacted the muscles range of movement making them more susceptible, but I don't like that anymore.

Your second part highlights the absolute failure in good research.

badnights
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Location: Northwest Territories, Canada

Re: Location of RLS Symptoms Changing

Post by badnights »

Interesting thoughts, both!
As my RLS is from oxalates, symptoms occur when oxalates are broken down though exercise or general oxalate dumping. I have nerve and the corresponding muscle trigger points. It seems the oxalate leaves the nerves and makes them ‘unhappy’ and they activate the corresponding muscles, which then create the motor sensory discrepancy for symptoms to exist. I can press the nerves to stop symptoms or treat the muscles.

My symptoms move all over place with oxalate dumping with some easy, and others very difficult to treat.
I don't see a reason here for the symptoms to be restricted to any particular place, unless there is some reason why oxalate dumping /breakdown might be spatially restricted? I know you're just speculating & learning as you go, but might you have any idea why oxalates would get dumped in the legs and not the neck, or one leg and not the other?

A nerve doesn't have to activate a muscle to cause the WED/RLS sensations. Sensations are carried by neurons, so simply having a neuron be 'unhappy' is reason enough for symptoms to present.
Could it be that people with asymmetrical symptoms (only one leg at a time, for example) have different root causes than people with symmetrical locations (where it could be more likely that the issue is in the brain and not in the extremities)?
I mentioned below: I have always had symmetrical symptoms, but recently (inside the last 2 months) I have been experiencing profoundly asymmetrical symptoms from time to time. Your supposition could still hold true if you assumed I have two causes of WED in one body.

I like the database idea. But what a mess to organize!
Enter what treatments helps (for example anything with pressure/massages or heat), which supplements did or did not help, which drugs are effective, sensations (painful RLS or "electric" RLS)... I wouldn't be surprised if we would find different stereotypes of RLS,
I have always thought it likely that there are different phenotypes (and Ann has been talking about it for much longer than me) but it's also possible that the data might have so much overlap that no phenotypes are statistically distinguishable. Heat is not good for Betty, but ice water is; ice water would send my symptoms thru the roof, but hot water is great. In one person (e.g. me) at different times, massage or pressure might relieve or might trigger symptoms. There would be some design problems to overcome in order tobe able to collect meaningful data. But I agree, a whole mess of good data could be very revealing!
Beth - Wishing you a restful sleep tonight
Click for info on WED/RLS AUGMENTATION & IRON
I am a volunteer moderator. My posts are not medical advice. My posts do not reflect RLS Foundation opinion.

Frunobulax
Posts: 431
Joined: Mon Jun 02, 2014 7:41 pm

Re: Location of RLS Symptoms Changing

Post by Frunobulax »

badnights wrote:
Wed Sep 30, 2020 4:51 am
I don't see a reason here for the symptoms to be restricted to any particular place, unless there is some reason why oxalate dumping /breakdown might be spatially restricted? I know you're just speculating & learning as you go, but might you have any idea why oxalates would get dumped in the legs and not the neck, or one leg and not the other?

A nerve doesn't have to activate a muscle to cause the WED/RLS sensations. Sensations are carried by neurons, so simply having a neuron be 'unhappy' is reason enough for symptoms to present.
Oxalates form little cystals that do mechanical damage. Oxalates in joints cause local inflammation that is often incorrectly diagnosed as arthritis, but can be checked via oxalate content of the joint fluid (not sure about the medical term here). If those crystals dissolve (due to low oxalate diet or magnesium/calcium supplementation) the also cause local inflammation, and the salts can form crystals too, usually in the kidneys (hence calcium-oxalate kidney stones). Sarah Myhill has some good oxalate papers on her website.
Gout crystals (that have a similar effect) tend to form in certain places, I'm sure oxalate crystals will have their own distinct patterns.

I'm thinking a bit in terms of a disrupted sender-receiver-line. Nerve disruption could happen in the brain, but also local (at the receptors), or on the way (due to low neurotransmitter production for example, or resistance on the part of the receptors, the latter probably happens in augmentation).

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