Gupta/DNRS/Limbic Re-training - Report on Progress

[badnights]

This is going to be a horribly long post. I haven’t been on here consistently in a long time. I was getting worse and worse. My meds were not enough to hold it off. I was no longer able to sleep in, even on the rare days when I allowed myself too. I think this was because I had used my alarm so often to get myself up at a “normal” time like 9 AM, just when I was finally getting some deep sleep, and two years of this had trained my body to think sleep was dangerous. I was a wreck.

I was enough of a wreck to spend $600 Cdn on The Gupta Program this past December. There is also a very similar program called Dynamic Neural Retraining System, by Annie Hopper. My reasons for choosing Gupta over DNRS were trivial - mainly, Gupta offered all the course material on a USB stick as well as online, whereas the DNRS program only offered online.

I started the program as soon as I signed up. It is for people with "neuroimmune conditioned syndromes" (his phrase) or limbic-system trauma, which I think could include WED/RLS. He says it's for CFS/ ME, fibromyalgia (you, Betty!), long covid, multiple chemical sensitivities, IBS, long covid, PTSD, some others. Basically, it's for any pain syndrome that appears for no reason and **** up your life.

The course consists of numerous videos divided into 15 sessions (the idea being 1 session per week), mental exercises, and meditations.

You learn his theory that somehow your limbic system became damaged. The limbic system is the "emotional brain", the parts of your brain responsible for emotion, motivation , learning, and long-term memory. The limbic system sends signals to the immune and endocrine systems to respond to infections, stimulate the reactions necessary to fight or flee in the presence of danger, and regulate heartbeat, body temperature, and other automatic functions.

The damage to the limbic system is theorized to have come from a huge stressor or combination of stressors, such as a life-threatening illness or infection (even the flu is potentially life-threatening), exposure to a toxic concentration of chemicals, mold, or prolonged psychological stress. The limbic system became damaged by the initial assault, whatever it was, and is now stuck in a state of perpetual fight-or-flight, sending danger signals to the rest of the body so that we respond as if we're under attack. We experience inflammation (a common bodily response to infection), heightened immune reactions, and pain. These symptoms, which were created by the limbic system, are interpreted by the damaged limbic system as threats, and a devastating feedback loop develops. (See Gupta’s explanation here, scroll down a bit https://www.guptaprogram.com/causes/)

My understanding of the theory is shaky at some points and I think I have more questions than they have answers. But anyway. The damage is thought of as faulty connections, rather than lesions. You learn how to repair the damage, that is, how to establish new, healthy neural connections and abandon the unhealthy neural pathways that perpetuate the fight-or-flight response, by practicing two things:
1. meditation and mindfulness, which encourages your default state to become one of calmness, with the parasympathetic nervous system dominant (the PNS or "rest-and-digest" system is the "opposite" of the sympathetic nervous system, aka "fight-or-flight" system, and should be our default state), and
2. noticing and interrupting thoughts about the symptoms, worries about the future, worries about whether I'll be able to do something later today or will I be too tired, in short, all thoughts that someone without the condition would not have; because every such thought, unchecked, reinforces the dysfunctional feedback loop (the way he puts it, worrying about the symptoms or anything to do with your disease confirms to the limbic system that there is indeed danger, making it harder to break the feedback loop).

Part of #1 is sleeping until you wake up, no alarms. That has been wonderful for me. Also, when you get up, you drink a full glass of water, walk outside (preferably in nature) for 20 minutes (or sit in front of a window to get sunlight if it's too cold out), do some breathing exercises, meditate for at least 20 minutes, and then do 5 rounds of the main re-training technique. (Your brain learns better in the morning so it is best to do it then.) I really love the walk, -40 degrees or not. I add 10 mintues of yoga into that routine. Sad to say the whole operation, counting my usual morning teeth-brushing etc., takes me almost 2 hours. So I don't have a lot of time to work, nor to focus on volunteer activity like this discussion board. I have to work on myself to stop worrying and feeling guilty about both things.

I am almost finished the video sessions. There are lots of exercises to do, in addition to two meditations daily and 5-50 "retrainings" daily using the main technique. There are other techniques as well as the main one. The exercises and some of the techniques involve some serious introspection, and the main technique involves intense visualization of yourself being healthy - actually imagining that you feel healthy, and imagining how you would feel if you really believed the program worked, and stuff like that. (e.g. how much would your condition bother you if you knew for sure you’d be cured in a month).

In addition to all that, there is a webinar series, 12 webinars over 12 weeks, where you listen to him for 20 minutes then ask questions. He goes over one new session each webinar (starting with session 4), and asks you to review or view it beforehand. I've paused my progress thru the video sessions to go over the earlier sessions again, because the webinar series just started when I was already on Session 12.

I noticed that I was becoming calmer almost right away. I eventually began to sleep better. So those were the first signs of progress.

I even managed to stick with it when work started again after xmas holidays. Doing all this stuff in the morning is pretty time-consuming. I already have a special dispensation to work less hours (and get paid less) so I am taking advantage of that. My hardest self-work is reassuring myself that I don't need to perform in order to be loved; and to just do my best, and leave the rest (Ann, your signature line!). I have very strong perfectionist/achiever/approval-seeker traits, and have worried and even panicked about work more often than I've enjoyed it since at least 2012.

But I can sleep in now, and I’m sleeping better overall. I don’t need an afternoon nap as often. And after 2 or 3 weeks, I started dropping my medication! Five or 6 nights out of every week since then, I've taken 6 mg instead of 9mg of hydromorph contin (the smallest size the pills come in is 3 mg). Until now, I haven't been able to go below 9 mg since my iron infusion from 2019 wore off. Added benefits: I’m calmer and more centered, I don’t get upset as easily. Much of the drop in medication is probably due to this calmness and the better sleep.

They say you might need 6 months to notice any benefit. Some people are “cured” in 6 months. Some are still doing the program after 2 years. There are coaches you can hire to help you, and all the coaches are people who have successfully gotten their lives back using the program.

I haven’t found anyone yet who has used it for WED/RLS, but I am getting more comfortable on the facebook group and might ask there soon. (There is a facebook group too). I wanted to share my progress so far on this journey in case anyone else wanted to try one of these limbic-retraining programs. And I apologize for not being here ….  xoxox to all of you

[Polar Bear]

Beth, I applaud your determination. This cannot have been easy and it is to your credit that you have now achieved better sleep, reduced medication and discovered an improved lifestyle.
I admire you so much.

[debbluebird]

That's fantastic Beth. Thanks for sharing.

[ViewsAskew]

Wow.

[Frunobulax]

Amazing news! I heard about Gupta a long time ago, and thought that his theories might have some merit. But I also was told that he forbids even to think/research about other treatments for 6 months, which is a big red flag for me. Is that still the case?

[badnights]

He is not as harsh as that. A manual comes with the course, basically a transcript of the videos, and this is a quote from it: "It is beneficial to let go of researching other theories and treatments, and just focus on the Gupta Program." I know he mentioned it somewhere else and gave more of an explanation, but I can't find it. He says it's important to do everything with compassion for yourself, and not be too perfectionistic.

I don't follow the advice not to research other causes, at least I don't follow it strictly. I figure, as long as I am not obsessing on possible solutions other than limbic system dysfunction, that's allowable. If I were to believe that I should - for example - avoid histamine-bearing foods, and that would cure me, then I wouldn't pay much attention to the difficult techniques designed to create new neural pathways.

I will try to come back here if I come across it again to give you his reason. Whatever it was, I was ok with it. I had kind of given up actively researching anyway, after the first 7 or 8 years when I was very keen on it . Only so much energy.

I have read all sorts of similar stuff about the DNRS program, too; I wonder how much of that is true. For example, I read that she tells patients to lie: to tell family, friends, even doctors that they are not sick anymore. I assume it's part of her visualization instructions and I am curious if she really is that harsh.

[badnights]

I posted on this study before I started looking into the Gupta Program:
viewtopic.php?p=106676#p106676

Reading it again, it reads in support of the theory that WED/RLS arises from limbic system dysfunction.

[Frunobulax]

He is not as harsh as that. A manual comes with the course, basically a transcript of the videos, and this is a quote from it: "It is beneficial to let go of researching other theories and treatments, and just focus on the Gupta Program." I know he mentioned it somewhere else and gave more of an explanation, but I can't find it. He says it's important to do everything with compassion for yourself, and not be too perfectionistic.

I don't follow the advice not to research other causes, at least I don't follow it strictly. I figure, as long as I am not obsessing on possible solutions other than limbic system dysfunction, that's allowable. If I were to believe that I should - for example - avoid histamine-bearing foods, and that would cure me, then I wouldn't pay much attention to the difficult techniques designed to create new neural pathways.

Thanks for that information. I'm always a bit wary of treatments that focus too much on one thing. I admit it's a fine line: On one hand many patients won't commit to something unless you categorically order them to do so. On the other hand there are many different root causes for RLS (of that I'm sure, maybe the only thing about RLS I'm sure of), and even though there may be a common pathomechanism (one or two mechanisms that cause our symptoms) I always believe in treating the root causes and not the symptoms. Which, in case of RLS, would be a variety of things. To give an example, if your RLS comes from a severe B12 deficiency then I have doubts that a Gupta program would be efficient.

Having said that, there are many root causes that cause permanent or semi-permanent damage, for example diabetes eventually killing of the remaining beta cells of the pancreas (that create insulin) or lead poisoning permanently affecting kidney function. Even if the root cause is handled, the damage remains. If disorders of the autonomous nervous system are one of these mechanisms in RLS, then it would make a lot of sense to treat them this way, even if they are not the root cause.

I appreciate getting more information about the Gupta program from you Beth, because I value your opinions very much. Wish you all the best that the program keeps working!

[badnights]

I appreciate getting more information about the Gupta program from you Beth, because I value your opinions very much. Wish you all the best that the program keeps working!

Thank you so much!

I totally get what you're saying about root causes. I am in a tough spot, one part of me saying "this is hokey BS" and the other part saying "give it a proper chance! it makes sense!" One of the thought patterns I'm trying to re-train goes like this: "sure it works for CFS/ME but it doesn't work for my disease! WED/RLS is a problem of iron transport across the bbb (or whatever), how could that be caused by limbic system dysfunction" - - but it could be. Hormones and neurotransmitters control so much of what goes on in our bodies, and the autonomic nervous system controls them, and the limbic system controls the autonomic NS.

The eerie thing is that my personal experience with WED/RLS matches exactly the theory of how the initial trauma occurs. So I am trying to believe. I am not sure if I have to believe for the re-training to work but it must make it easier.

They also talk about downstream effects, but from the point of view that the limbic trauma is the main cause and things like a B12 deficiency are the downstream effect (e.g. the trauma has altered your ability to absorb nutrients, causing the deficiency). I certainly agree that WED/RLS can be caused by something (like B12 deficiency) unrelated to limbic system trauma.

Something I think about a lot is the damage to my dopamine receptor system from taking dopaminergic meds. That would be a downstream effect. Is it already gone? Is it going away on its own? Can re-training resolve it? (Will it always be there? I won't seriously consider that possibility because it might bias me to work less hard on the retraining. I'm playing games with my own head.)

Sadly things are not going so well this week, no idea why, but I am reminding myself that I committed to doing it, and I keep doing it - - I love the meditation, but the the talking-to-your-parts techniques are hard, sometimes draining. I'm getting calmness in my day-to-day life from both of them, though - I haven't been so calm since before my first baby was born, I think. And I'm sure that calmness is responsible for the medication reductions I had. So I don't think it qualifies as an indication of success in breaking the feedback loop.

This week, I've had 9 mg more nights than 6 mg, and I have only just become ok with that. It's such a fine line between getting my hopes up and having a reasonable outlook; also, in the other direction, between having a reasonable outlook and being convinced I will die soon. I personally committed to the program for a year, because I didn't figure 6 months was going to be enough; so I have a little under 10 months to go.