Cannabis

Use this section to discuss your experiences with prescription drugs, iron injections, and other medical interventions that involve the introduction of a drug or medicine into the body. Discuss side effects, successes, failures, published research, information about drug trials, and information about new medications being developed.

Important: Posts and information in this section are based on personal experiences and recommendations; they should not be considered a substitute for the advice of a healthcare provider.
badnights
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Re: Cannabis

Postby badnights » Fri Apr 19, 2019 6:58 am

QyX do you think the CBD oil taken in the morning helps with your sleep that night??
Beth - Wishing you a restful sleep tonight
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QyX
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Re: Cannabis

Postby QyX » Sat Apr 20, 2019 12:31 pm

badnights wrote:QyX do you think the CBD oil taken in the morning helps with your sleep that night??


I don't think it helps with falling asleep but when I sleep, the overall sleep quality seems to be a bit better with CBD.

Sometimes I also inhale Cannabis strains who have significant amounts of CBD.

I feel like THC just works better when there is also some CBD involved.

QyX
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Re: Cannabis

Postby QyX » Wed May 08, 2019 2:21 pm

badnights wrote:I mentioned elsewhere that I've tried Sativex sublingual spray, which is half-half THC and CBD, and it seemed to help at first but then it started to make my sleep very fractured and even caused WED symptoms sometimes. Actually I started with a water-based tincture bought in a shop; it mostly worked, but when I got prescription Sativex, it never really worked.

Recently I tried "pure" CBD oil. Traces of THC, nothing more. That also fractured my sleep, every night I took it. Brutally.

My initial experiences with cannabis for WED (smoking my son's weed lol) were that Indica strains made my WED/RLS worse and Sativa strains made it better (backwards as usual for us; the "body stone" was just an RLS/WED nightmare). I checked the CBD oil, and it was derived from 4 different strains, at least 3 of which were Sativa strains. But it was dreadful.

Next, I tried some of the spray in addition to the CBD oil, because everyone here seems to agree that some THC is necessary. Again, a bad night. I only had the energy to try that once.

I think I have to give up on cannabis, but I will continue to read the results of QyX's experiments with interest. In case you find the magic solution.


Okay, .. so I have a very interesting update.

At first I found it weird that Indica strains made your RLS worse and Sativa strains made it better. What you normally would expect is that both straints improve RLS but that indica strains affects more your body feeling while Sativa strains more the feeling in your head.

Anyway ... in the past 7 weeks I noticed that the Cannabis flowers I was currently using seem to trigger mild RLS symptoms ... I was having minor symptoms for 30 to 90 minutes until the symptoms improved and I had all the benefits from the THC. For a while I was not sure if I was just imagining things, thinking that it was just my regular RLS ... but no, yesterday it was super obvious that Cannabis was triggering RLS symptoms for 30 to 90 minutes.

And now guess what kind of strain I was using. Right ... it was a 100% pure indica strain (Bedica, 14% THC, 0,1% CBD, you can google Bedica and find more information about it) .... and wow ... I couldn't believe it because Bedica kinda became my favourite strain in the past weeks. And it helped me a lot and I guess because of all the THC I did not notice that Bedica also had the potential to trigger RLS symptoms.

Also very interesting: when I notice that I need my next Oxycodone / Morphine dose and I take the next dose ... for the first 10-20 minutes the symptoms often get a little bit worse. It feels like the first step before things can get better is that the symptoms have to get worse. And I had a similar feeling with Bedica.

Another reason why this has happened could be the reduction of my CBD dose. I was just sloppy and lazy with taking the oily solution. Kinda had no patience for the stuff to come out of the bottle.

Anyway, today I got two new Cannabis flowers I did not have before. First is "Bedocran" ... 100% Sativa with 21% THC ... and Pedanois 20/1 (Indica) with 23% THC ... both have less than 0,1% CBD.

So I am going to increase my oral CBD dose now and we will see what happens. Tried the Bedocran a few minutes earlier but it is hard to tell if it is triggering any RLS symptoms or not because today I walked a lot while only having 3,5 hours of sleep. To get through the day I took a small dose of Amphetamine in the morning, normally prescribed for my ADD but I don't take it daily. And the amphetamines wearing off can also trigger RLS symptoms.

So it is hard to tell what exactly is going on in the moment except that I can say that the Bedrocan seems to make me super sleepy. But from what I've read most people seem to react in the opposite way. It should be uplifting, stimulating etc.

So (3rd time xD) ... it will be interesting to see how this continues. Also the 50:50 THC / CBD spray (Sativex) never triggered any RLS symptoms. I am sure of it.

So it turns out that treating RLS with Cannabis is way more complicated than you might think. It is basically a big trial & error just like any other drug. Impossible to predict how someone will react to a specific strain / brand of Cannabis.

I really wish we had some major research in this area. It is obvious that THC & CBD can help with RLS ... but we need to understand better how it all works and how all the other molecules in the Cannabis plant affect RLS symptoms.

stjohnh
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Re: Cannabis

Postby stjohnh » Wed May 08, 2019 2:33 pm

Thanks for the info. For me, the several strains I tried all seemed to work about the same, but none had very low CBD content. I don't remember any worsening urge to move symptoms with any of them, either inhaled or eaten.
Blessings,
Holland

badnights
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Re: Cannabis

Postby badnights » Fri May 10, 2019 7:52 am

If you look at some of the older posts - don't bother, they're boring and old - I'm not the only person who had symptoms caused by Indica whereas Sativa strains seemed to help. At the time, I thought it was reasonable because relaxation of the limbs triggers WED, and relaxation of the limbs is what Indica - the body stone - does. Also, it seemed to make sense for Sativa - the head stone - to be beneficial because the location of the primary WED malfunction is in the head. At least, that's how I thought of it back then.

But it is so clearly much more complicated than that, as QyX says. There are people here using pure Indica strains with success, & many who notice no difference.

QyX wrote:Also very interesting: when I notice that I need my next Oxycodone / Morphine dose and I take the next dose ... for the first 10-20 minutes the symptoms often get a little bit worse. It feels like the first step before things can get better is that the symptoms have to get worse. And I had a similar feeling with Bedica.

Did you noticed that worsening of symptoms right after taking oxy/morph before you started cannabis? If not, then it seems likely it's caused (somehow) by the interaction of opioids and cannabinoids, Maybe the paper you posted hints at an explanation.

I am so glad you're posting about your experiences here. I agree there needs to be some research. People are benefiting and there is clearly potential for more to benefit, but the experimentation required is daunting. It's worse than with other meds because there are so many varieties of cannabis, different proportions of compounds within those varieties, and various ways of preparing and administering it (Vaping, cannabutter, candies, buccal spray, etc). Some clarification on all this would be good.

What are the basics that we know?
Sativa-based strains can be good, Indica=based strains seem to cause symptoms.
CBD is alerting and can fracture sleep. THC helps sleep. 50:50 can help pain. Something - CBN? -actually helps the urge to move.
What other basics are we relatively sure of? A paltry beginning.
I guess I could also add that vaping & smoking take effect very quickly, sublingual and buccal methods quickly, and ingesting takes a long time.

The RLS Foundation provides small grants every year to WED/RLS researchers. Let's enquire if the Foundation has any plans to solicit proposals on cannabis research. And maybe if they don't already, they can consider doing that. It might pull new researchers into their orbit, people who are currently involved in cannabis research but have not investigated its use in WED/RLS.
Beth - Wishing you a restful sleep tonight
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Rustsmith
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Re: Cannabis

Postby Rustsmith » Fri May 10, 2019 11:02 am

I don't know if anything is started yet for RLS, probably not since we haven't heard anything from the Foundation. But the Univ. of Colorado pharmacy department (Dr. Bainbridge) has a cannabis research lab set up. It took a couple of years for her to accomplish this because it took a number of work arounds to keep from endangering the rest of the university's federal funding. All because marijuana is still illegal at a federal level. There are a few signs that this could change, but how soon is still uncertain right now.
Steve

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QyX
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Re: Cannabis

Postby QyX » Sat May 11, 2019 4:04 pm

So here is another update and I am afraid it is just getting more complicated and confusing.

The potent Indica strain I am using currently (Pedanios 20/1 - 23,8% THC) does not seem to cause any RLS symptoms. At least as far as I can tell. On the 1st day Pedanios knocked me out for a total of 26 hours. I guess the main reason for this was that I only slept for 2-3 hours per day in the days before. I was exhausted for sure.

Very weird: the 2nd day Pedanios didn't help me much with falling asleep ... I mean sure, I slept a lot the day before so everything was messed up anyways but compared to the effects on day 1 I expected something else. So I added some Bedrocan (20,2% THC, 100% Sativa while Pedanios 20/1 is actually only 70% Indica) and had no trouble sleeping. And yesterday I only used a tiny bit of Pedanios but used a big dose of Bedroca and I slept just fine and great.

The way I experience is like this: with getting tired and sleepy ... for me this is a feeling that is mainly going on in my head. I often have it that my body is totally exhausted and tired ... but because my head has different ideas I am not able to sleep. All Indica strains also affect the head of course but it often feels like it is not enough. Sure, they sedate a bit and make me sleepy but often not in a way that is sufficient to fall AND stay asleep.

So for now I will focus on the Bedrocan and see how it works for one full week and then try the Pedanios again. I can also imagine that adding a bit of Pedanios can make the Bedrocan work better. I honestly have no idea.

Also from the very first Cannabis strains I got, one was named "Bediol" ... some weak Sativa strain and I remember how great it worked with relaxing my limbs. Back then I did not know it was a Sativa strain and was convinced by its effect that it must be Indica for sure. It was a strain with around 8% THC and maybe 12% CBD .. and it was making me more tired than the Bedica ... but after a few weeks I started to prefer Bedica because it has more THC and the Bediol started to feel a bit weak. And I did not notice that Bedica was worsening my RLS symptoms ... but simply could be that the THC was so powerful because of low tolerance that I did not notice the RLS worsening effects of Bedica.

Anyway, now I have almost 20g of Cannabis at home and still quite a lot of Bedica left. I will investigate this further and try the Bedica again sometime next week but there is for sure some evidence that Sativa strains maybe work better for RLS patients than Indica strains does.

However it is important to keep in mind that there are many strains who are only like 60, 70, or 80% Indica or Sativa in addition to all the classic Hybrid strains on the market. So that makes me thing that it is all a big trial & error thing but maybe nobody should be surprised if a pure Indica strain is not working out for you.

So having this information, I will for sure try more Sativa strains in the future. But what I can get will depend on the availability in the pharmacies. I will do my best to try everything that is on the market. It will just take some time until I can really tell what is going on.

Did you noticed that worsening of symptoms right after taking oxy/morph before you started cannabis? If not, then it seems likely it's caused (somehow) by the interaction of opioids and cannabinoids, Maybe the paper you posted hints at an explanation.


Yes, I've had this long before I tried Cannabis. The effect is not super strong but still noticeable. With Bedica it is way more pronounced and it can take quite some until the THC is dominating the effects ... but even with Bedica causing RLS symptoms initially, the overall net result is still better with Bedica than without ... but of course, if you want to use Bedica as a sleep aid and you have RLS symptoms for the first 90 to 120 minutes after consumption, it is not very useful.

QyX
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Re: Cannabis

Postby QyX » Sat May 11, 2019 4:23 pm

Oh, and I just found this:

Avoid using sativa/indica terminology:

There is perhaps no debate in the world of cannabis more contentious than that of species. The genus Cannabis sativa L. is the only official species, but the cannabis industry is using other terms as indica and hybrid to promote their varieties. Associate Professor Sean Myles from the Canadian Dalhousie University recommends avoiding the use of these terms as a recent study has demonstrated that current labelling of varieties as sativa and indica does not reflect any meaningful genetic identity.

Myles, who supervised the study on the genetic differences between the two cannabis types and their hybrids, will present his results on the International Cannabinoid Research Society (ICRS) conference in Leiden, Netherlands, from 1 – 4 July 2018. In the run-up to the conference, Bedrocan asked him a few questions.

Do you consider the results as ground-breaking?

‘No, I don’t. Any professional in breeding or genetics with even peripheral knowledge of the cannabis industry would have bet that the ‘sativa’ and ‘indica’ labelling in the current cannabis market was unlikely to reflect genetic reality. It just took some data to demonstrate the degree to which this is the case, which we have done and continue to do.’

How did you come up to study cannabis?

‘Our laboratory developed an interest in cannabis because we do similar research in genetic ancestry deconvolution in other species, like grapes and apples. It made a lot of sense to extend our expertise to cannabis since it is an economically valuable agricultural species, little was known about its genetic structure, and there was widespread use of a dichotomy (i.e. ‘sativa’ vs. ‘indica’) that was believed to reflect ancestry. For the study together with Bedrocan, we benefited from their expertise in chemical profiling and paired it with our expertise in genomics and bioinformatics. The result has been fruitful in terms of insights into the question of variety identity.’

What are the reactions to your research results so far?

‘Overall, the public has taken a strong interest in our results, which suggest that the manner in which the labels ‘sativa’ and ‘indica’ are currently being used do not reflect meaningful genetic identities. Many of those in the cannabis industry, both medical and recreational, have also headed our advice to avoid using these terms until there is a consensus about what they mean. In the end, I believe our results have contributed to a shift whereby varieties are being increasingly described by their measurable chemical content rather than by their purported ancestry.’

What were the responses from companies that sell cannabis?

‘There are those in the recreational cannabis market who are unlikely to abandon the terms ‘sativa’ and ‘indica’ because they are useful terms for marketing their products. This is especially the case for companies selling seeds online. Their discontent is acknowledged, but the evidence speaks for itself and I’m hopeful that, in the end, labelling of cannabis products will be based on empirical data rather than marketing tricks.’

Some people claim to be able to smell the difference between an indica or sativa type. What would you like to say to them?

‘Our results do in fact suggest that the labelling of strains as ‘sativa’ vs. ‘indica’ may have more to do with their aromas than their genetic ancestry. Thus, in this case, these people may in fact be partially correct – they can associate a smell with a label. However, this still does not mean that the labels are capturing meaningful genetic information.’

What would be your recommendation to medicinal cannabis producers? Whether or not to make the distinction?

‘Our recommendation is to avoid the use of ‘indica’ and ‘sativa’ as it’s likely to create confusion in the marketplace. So far, there is no evidence to support this dichotomy as a useful tool for describing ancestry or chemical composition. We advise producers to describe the content of their product empirically with regards to cannabinoid and terpenoid content.’



Cannabis reclassified

Cannabis labelled sativa and indica may not come from distinct ancestries, according to a study performed by the Canadian Dalhousie University in cooperation with Bedrocan on the genetic differences between the two types and their hybrids. In this study 149 Dutch cannabis samples were analysed, correlating the genotype and chemotype to their reported ancestries. Indica- and Sativa-labelled samples were not as distinct as sub species would be assumed to be, but the genetic differences between them do correlate to their terpene profile (resin fragrance), which could explain the variation between them.


Source: https://bedrocan.com/avoid-using-sativa ... rminology/

My thoughts: because the market for medicinal Cannabis is so new compared to "traditional" medicine, we simply all have a lot to learn. This just shows how complicated the situation is.

badnights
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Re: Cannabis

Postby badnights » Sat May 18, 2019 5:54 am

that actually simplifies things. The indica vs sativa effects weren't consistent. No wonder! Now we know that we shouldn't even consider that as a variable.
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legsbestill
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Re: Cannabis

Postby legsbestill » Mon Jun 03, 2019 2:29 pm

From research on the Internet (so it must be true), the properties of cannabis can vary significantly depending on when it is harvested. The trichomes (tiny little protrusions growing out of bud and leaf which give the plant it’s frosty appearance) turn from clear to milky and then to amber as the plants age. The type of ‘stone’ can be different depending on what stage they are at when harvested. I wonder does this impact on effectiveness for rls treatment? And also to what extent do commercial growers take this into account when harvesting? In my - very limited - experience one plant can have a lot of Amber tricomes and the one right beside it (exactly same age) can still have clear tricomes

badnights
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Re: Cannabis

Postby badnights » Fri Jun 14, 2019 4:56 am

how interesting. Probably does have an effect!
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ViewsAskew
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Re: Cannabis

Postby ViewsAskew » Fri Jun 14, 2019 9:48 pm

When I received the med marijuana certificate in CA a few years ago, the doc I saw talked about how many properties there were that they still knew nothing about. When there are so many variables and it has been illegal, it only makes sense that we wouldn't be able to tell much just by one variable.
Ann - Take what you need, leave the rest

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QyX
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Re: Cannabis

Postby QyX » Fri Jun 21, 2019 8:58 pm

New update:

#1 The Pedanios 20 / 1 seems to work best for sleeping purposes while the Bedrocan offers better pain relief. However when I skip my cannabis meds for a day because I feel like I don't need them, the next time I use cannabis it often feels like that cannabis is worsening my symptoms in the first 60 to 120 minutes. Currently I am trying to be more disciplined.

#2 My sleeping pattern is still far away from being stable. Sometimes I can sleep during the night without a problem and sometimes it just doesn't work. It seems mostly random however it also seems that my sleeping pattern has a tendency to move backwards, between 4 and 8 hours per day. So when I just stay awake long enough, about 20 hours, then most of the time I have no big trouble sleeping but since I tend to sleep between 8 and 10 hours, it also messes up any day-night structure that would be compatible with a "normal life".

#3 So sure, sleep quality is most of the time at least okay but my sleeping pattern is all over the place. My doctor now prescribed pure THC, also known as "Dronabinol" in a 2,5% oily solution to investigate how I respond to pure THC without any other cannabinoids or terpenes involved. She suspect pure THC will have a stimulating effect but when I tried it today it made me really sleepy and tired even though I only took a really small dose of 1,6 mg.

#4 I have quite a bit of experience with the Sativex spray now where one spray contains about 2,5 mg THC and CBD. And I must say the effect is quite different compared to pure THC alone. Sativex tends to make me a bit foggy in the brain and also sedates me while the Dronabinol doesn't seem to have such effects. It only made me sleepy and tired. It will be interesting to see if this effects continue to last and if it actually will help me sleep.

#5 Overall my experience seems to indicate that THC is the single most important factor when you want to use cannabis as a sleeping aid for RLS. It could very well be that CBD has some weak stimulating properties that are hard to notice when THC is involved. Also effects of CBD are dose dependent and additionally dependent on the other cannabinoids you are taking in a specific moment.

#6 So for now I will try to avoid CBD as much as I can. It is of course not fully possible since the cannabis flowers I use contain about 1% of CBD but I will not use the Sativex spray or the CBD solution for the next 1-2 weeks and see how it goes.

#7 That the pure THC solution made me so tired and sleepy is quite interesting. This is in the end the biggest problem. I need to be at least a little bit tired before Cannabis can help me sleep. Maybe CBD from the Sativex spray was interfering a bit and I will have more success with the THC solution. I am not too optimistic since I am aware that my alertness is a very difficult problem to solve. But at least I have something new to try.

I will post an update as soon as I have something more concrete to report.

Oh and

#8 .. still Cannabis dramatically improved my quality of life. Not all strains were helpful. For example Bedica which I used quite a lot in the first months (contains 14,6% THC and less than 0,5% CBD) seems to reduce my energy and alertness during the day and also can cause feelings of guilt and self doubt in the hours after using it. But this has nothing to do with the THC itself since the significant more potent strains like Bedrocan and Pedanios don't cause suche issues. So experimenting and trying different strains and products is very very important.

Just because one cannabis product does not work for you does not mean another will not work either!

stjohnh
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Re: Cannabis

Postby stjohnh » Fri Jun 21, 2019 9:56 pm

[quote="QyX"]New update:

...
#5 Overall my experience seems to indicate that THC is the single most important factor when you want to use cannabis as a sleeping aid for RLS. .../quote]

This has been my experience after trying a dozen or so different THC/CBD ratio blends.
Blessings,
Holland

badnights
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Re: Cannabis

Postby badnights » Mon Jun 24, 2019 4:45 am

The need to experiment I find very depressing. I feel that i can't afford the time - - the time that gets lost when you have a bad night.
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