Kratom physiology

Here you can share your experiences with substances that are ingested, inhaled, or otherwise consumed for the purpose of relieving RLS/WED, other than prescription medications. For example, herbal remedies, nutritional supplements, diet, kratom, and marijuana (for now) should be discussed here. Tell others of successes, failures, side effects, and any known research on these substances. [Posts on these subjects created prior to 2009 are in the Physical Treatments forum.]

Important: Posts and information in this section are based on personal experiences and recommendations; they should not be considered a substitute for the advice of a healthcare provider.
stjohnh
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Location: Palo Alto, California

Kratom physiology

Postby stjohnh » Tue May 01, 2018 10:47 pm

One of our regular forum members who has been on methadone 2.5 mg every 6 hours and gabapentin, has recently been having inadequate control of her restless leg symptoms. She tried kratom added to her other medications and has had a distinct improvement.

Kratom is known to stimulate the mu-opioid receptors, just as methadone does. Both methadone and kratom probably have other effects, possibly with some stimulation of other opioid receptors.

I take kratom, have for a couple of years and have good results but don't use other opioids. I had been assuming that the primary effect of kratom was stimulation of the mu-opioid receptors, and I had also been assuming that the amount of stimulation was significantly less than with using a regular opioid like methadone.

The improvement in this patient with adding kratom onto methadone does raise the possibility that some of the assumptions above are incorrect.
While certainly the possibility of tolerance to methadone may be the explanation for her inadequate control, I would think that adding kratom would cause little improvement.

I have not suggested to those folks using methadone that they add kratom, assuming the situation I described above and figuring that the addition of kratom would be something like adding just an extra milligram or two of methadone to their current dosing.

It is certainly an interesting idea to consider the possibility that kratom has some other effect than just stimulation of the opioid receptors, making it a possible valuable addition to those taking traditional opioids.
Blessings,
Holland

legsbestill
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Location: Dublin Ireland

Re: Kratom physiology

Postby legsbestill » Wed May 02, 2018 8:53 pm

I have often wondered that about kratom; does it act on the same receptors as opioids (other opioids?)? There don't seem to be too many instances of people taking kratom and an opioid.

I also tended to assume that kratom would be less powerful than opioids (other opioids?) but in fact I found kratom easily as effective at controlling my rls as oxycontin. When it came to discontinuing each of those drugs there was no comparison however. With oxycontin I experienced awful symptoms for at least 5 weeks. With kratom the withdrawals usually last about 3 or 4 days and are more akin to a mild flu (oxycontin was like experiencing profound grief with horrendous incapacitating physical symptoms - not as bad as withdrawing from a dopamine agonist after augmentation but not far off). On one occasion I thought that the kratom withdrawals were going on much longer but it turned out that the troublesome symptoms were caused by reducing my dose of pregabalin.

Another thing I wonder about kratom is whether it causes central sleep apnea which I suffered from when on oxycontin. There is so little useful research about kratom.

jul2873
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Joined: Thu Nov 15, 2012 7:32 pm

Re: Kratom physiology

Postby jul2873 » Thu May 03, 2018 12:43 am

Yes, we really do need good research on kratom. It's one reason to fight so hard against the FDA scheduling it as a category 1 drug, as that pretty much shuts down research.

I will say that I am on my 5th year of using only kratom to control my RLS symptoms, and it is still working well, although I'm taking a bit more now than when I started.

Oozz
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Joined: Wed Oct 11, 2017 8:09 pm

Re: Kratom physiology

Postby Oozz » Fri May 04, 2018 10:34 pm

How did you go about finding a vendor? Is there anyone that you recommend? I’m currently reviewing FB for vendors..

stjohnh
Posts: 576
Joined: Sun Feb 14, 2016 3:13 pm
Location: Palo Alto, California

Re: Kratom physiology

Postby stjohnh » Fri May 04, 2018 11:26 pm

I've used several vendors, although I keep coming back to SoCal herbal remedies.

https://www.socalherbalremedies.com

prices are near the bottom and very reliable. Only two slight problems, one is they sell out of the red vein Borneo which is the one I use and is most commonly recommended in these forums. If they are out send an email to the proprietor and ask when it will be back in stock.

The second is that nowhere on the site at all do they use the word Kratom. If you want to see all of their Kratom products you need to put speciosa in the search box. They label their products as tea.

Others I've used are phytoextractum.com, authentickratom.com, and others

Mystic Island Kratom is highly regarded and very low priced according to comments on Reddit. I haven't used them because I have a large stash and won't be needing any for a long time.
http://www.mysticislandkratoms.com/
Blessings,
Holland

Oozz
Posts: 54
Joined: Wed Oct 11, 2017 8:09 pm

Re: Kratom physiology

Postby Oozz » Mon May 07, 2018 8:35 pm

I just got mine in the mail. The exact strain you recommended from SoCal. Could you tell me the recommended dosing?

stjohnh
Posts: 576
Joined: Sun Feb 14, 2016 3:13 pm
Location: Palo Alto, California

Re: Kratom physiology

Postby stjohnh » Mon May 07, 2018 9:04 pm

Oozz,

Dosing is quite variable depending on individual circumstances and other medications you are taking.
Probably best to start with about 1/2 of a level teaspoon. Wait 2 hours and if no effect repeat it. 1/2 tsp is 0.9g.

I take 720 mg at 7:30 in the evening and another 360 mg at approximately midnight. However, I use several other medications as well for my restless legs and sleeping so that is probably at the lower end of the dosing range.

Dosing goes up to four or five grams several times a day.

Kratom is extremely bitter, I put the powder in 00 capsules and swallow those. Some mix it with grapefruit juice, keep it ice cold in the refrigerator and it's a little more tolerable. Some make a paste and put a glob of the paste on their tongue then gulp it down.
Blessings,
Holland

debbluebird
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Re: Kratom physiology

Postby debbluebird » Mon May 07, 2018 9:39 pm

I mix mine with pineapple juice. I mix it ahead, otherwise it doesn't mix well. When you mix it awhile before drinking, it mixes totally. I like the little 6 oz cans.

jul2873
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Joined: Thu Nov 15, 2012 7:32 pm

Re: Kratom physiology

Postby jul2873 » Tue May 08, 2018 2:01 pm

I read in the little bit of research I could find that while kratom was not water soluble, it dissolve in acid. So if it sits in pineapple juice, or orange juice (which I use) it does dissolve after awhile.

I've also found that mixing up strains helps its effectiveness. If I wake up still sleepy, green kratom seems to wake me up.

EeFall
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Location: USA

Re: Kratom physiology

Postby EeFall » Wed May 09, 2018 6:48 pm

I take just Suboxone for RLS (after going through practically everything else over many years including methadone).

I also take Kratom once in awhile now mostly to snap me out of depressive moods but it also helps my RLS. I keep a large supply that I purchased online in case I can no longer obtain or afford Suboxone as it works pretty good at controlling RLS all on its own for me. I purchase capsules online and fill them with a little capsule device I also purchased online. The State I live in continues to try to make Kratom illegal but so far they have not succeeded.

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SquirmingSusan
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Re: Kratom physiology

Postby SquirmingSusan » Sun May 13, 2018 8:52 pm

I started taking kratom in place of methadone last November. It worked great for me until I had oral surgery and needed a lot of it to control the pain. Now it takes a lot of it to manage the RLS.

About every year I try a keto diet again to see if it helps manage my narcolepsy symptoms or RLS. Since going into ketosis on Wednesday, my RLS has just gone wildly out of control. I finally broke down and took some methadone in the middle of the night. I forgot how sad and cranky methadone makes me. I also got a migraine aura a little while ago.

Hopefully I can do few days of methadone and then get back to lowered doses of kratom. I hate RLS so much.
Susan

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SquirmingSusan
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Re: Kratom physiology

Postby SquirmingSusan » Sun May 13, 2018 9:11 pm

I want to let you know about a couple of good vendors for kratom, in addition to SoCal, which is a great vendor. These all have good quality kratom, and are reasonably priced:

Kat's Botanicals: https://katsbotanicals.com/
Valkyrie Botanicals: https://www.valkyriebotanicals.com/
Tea Time Botanicals: https://www.teatimebotanical.com/

All 3 of those vendors have Facebook groups where you can get more information about the various strains. I find Tea Time to have an overwhelming selection, but crazy good customer service.

Also, my favorite way to take the kratom is using oblate discs of pouches. http://a.co/dJpaBJV I fold them up and stick them closed with a damp finger. Then I dunk the whole thing in water, and swallow quickly. I've gotten them stuck a couple times when my mouth is really dry, so dunking them helps with that.
Susan

jul2873
Posts: 376
Joined: Thu Nov 15, 2012 7:32 pm

Re: Kratom physiology

Postby jul2873 » Tue May 15, 2018 1:53 pm

I'd like to recommend Velvet Soul Naturals. https://www.velvetsoulnaturals.com/

I have used them for almost five years now. Their kratom is always finely ground and tastes fresh. Plus they kept selling even when it looked like it would become Schedule 1. They call it Mitragyna, rather than kratom. I think that's the main ingredient in it.

mudslide
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Re: Kratom physiology

Postby mudslide » Tue May 15, 2018 6:52 pm

Susan, that's great info about the oblate discs/edible film. I'm about to start trying kratom, and if it seems like a winner, I'll get a package of these. Many thanks!

badnights
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Re: Kratom physiology

Postby badnights » Wed May 16, 2018 4:56 am

Susan wrote:Since going into ketosis on Wednesday, my RLS has just gone wildly out of control. I finally broke down and took some methadone in the middle of the night. I forgot how sad and cranky methadone makes me. I also got a migraine aura a little while ago.

Hopefully I can do few days of methadone and then get back to lowered doses of kratom. I hate RLS so much.
Ah gee Susan, that sucks. I do hope it has calmed down enough for the kratom to take over.
Beth - Wishing you a restful sleep tonight
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