Another year of relief (Low-oxalate diet)

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Kansas
Posts: 10
Joined: Sat Jul 25, 2020 8:36 pm

Re: Another year of relief (Low-oxalate diet)

Post by Kansas »

thank you for all the info on a low-oxalate diet! after 2 months on it my rls is improved though not completely gone. I realized the applesauce I was eating had vit c added! so I got some yesterday without it. after reading another of your posts I ordered magnesium malate and will take it instead of the other.

keep posting!!
:P

thesleepless1
Posts: 9
Joined: Sun Jul 17, 2016 10:50 pm

Re: Another year of relief (Low-oxalate diet)

Post by thesleepless1 »

Kansas wrote:
Tue Oct 06, 2020 9:11 pm
thank you for all the info on a low-oxalate diet! after 2 months on it my rls is improved though not completely gone. I realized the applesauce I was eating had vit c added! so I got some yesterday without it. after reading another of your posts I ordered magnesium malate and will take it instead of the other.

keep posting!!
:P
What is the correlation with vitamin C and the low oxalate diet?

Frunobulax
Posts: 314
Joined: Mon Jun 02, 2014 7:41 pm

Re: Another year of relief (Low-oxalate diet)

Post by Frunobulax »

thesleepless1 wrote:
Wed Oct 07, 2020 6:12 am
Kansas wrote:
Tue Oct 06, 2020 9:11 pm
thank you for all the info on a low-oxalate diet! after 2 months on it my rls is improved though not completely gone. I realized the applesauce I was eating had vit c added! so I got some yesterday without it.
What is the correlation with vitamin C and the low oxalate diet?
I have found fairly contradictory information. Maybe @XenMan knows more about this.

Vitamin C might be metabolized to oxalate https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/27002809, https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/8126804/ and could thus lead to higher oxalate load.

However, this view is controversial. A quick search yielded http://orthomolecular.org/resources/omns/v09n05.shtml which looks decent at first glance. Apart from limitatations of some studies, any acid would tend to dissolve oxalate crystals, therefore acids like vitamin C could increase excretion of oxalates via urine. In any case we know that vitamin C does not increase the likelyhood of oxalate kidney stones https://jasn.asnjournals.org/content/10/4/840.

To digress a little: There also seems to be a carbohydrate connection. https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/572722/ claims that a diet high in refined carbs (flour etc.) could cause calcium oxalate kidney stones, probably coming from hyperinsulinemia https://doi.org/10.1111/j.1442-2042.2010.02661.x. Now a high carb diet routinely increases oxidative stress and reduces antioxidants, so high carb is usually associated with increased vitamin C requirements. Or conversely, we know cases like the Inuit where people would consume hardly any vitamin C in their diet, but they were perfectly healthy because they didn't consume any carbs (or oxalates). That would also indicate that consumption of vitamin C could be beneficial.

Deb212
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Joined: Mon May 24, 2021 3:59 pm

Re: Another year of relief (Low-oxalate diet)

Post by Deb212 »

Five weeks ago, on a desperate search in the middle of the night, I found this post. Like so many others, I thought good for you I hope it continues. I looked at it closer. I'm not a stranger to elimination diets and I'm desperate so I started looking at oxalates and salicylates. I thought there was enough there to try it out and see what happens. I'm already gluten free, sugar/sweetner free, I rarely eat processed foods and, although I have Hashimoto's in remission due to diet, I decided to try low oxalates (and low salicylates). Unfortunately that meant I had to add some things into my diet that I rarely eat like dairy and goitrogenics. But I didn't expect it to be too big of an issue. My diet at that point (5 weeks ago) was considered a healthy diet with many VERY HIGH OXALATE foods. I went cold turkey the next day and ate foods that had low or zero oxalates. I fell asleep at 8:30 pm that night and woke at 5:30 am with two trips to the bathroom and NO RLS in between. Since then I have had some restlessness at night and vague feelings of RLS usually early in the evening but for the most part I am RLS free day and night. Several years ago I started weaning off RLS meds as I was experiencing augmentation. I've been medication free for 15 months. I was afraid I would never sleep again and then I found this post.

notnowdad
Posts: 35
Joined: Thu Jan 14, 2010 7:41 pm

Re: Another year of relief (Low-oxalate diet)

Post by notnowdad »

Deb, It is wonderful to hear your report. Watch out for non-organic asparagus. I wondered for a long time why it triggers my RLS even though it is reputed to be a low oxalate food. I recently discovered that it is typically sprayed with an oxalic acid solution post harvest to “preserve nutrients” and keep it fresher looking for the grocery store. Since I found a source for organic asparagus I haven’t had any more issues with it. Unfortunately I believe other fruits and vegetables may be similarly treated. And it is hard to find reliable information on this issue.

BTW, I think gluten has taken a bad rap. Not only is most American flour bromated, bleached and enriched with potentially unsafe chemicals, but a lot of bread products are also laden with chemical preservatives. I eat home baked bread (made with unbromated, unbleached, unenriched flour) or organic, unenriched pasta at virtually every meal. One of my family members has a friend who actually suffered from celiac disease and has found she can eat all the bread and pasta she likes since she moved to Italy.

Best of luck to you, Jim.

Yankiwi
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Location: West Coast, South Island, New Zealand

Re: Another year of relief (Low-oxalate diet)

Post by Yankiwi »

Years ago, when my husband was on a gluten free diet, a chef friend said to try organic flour as from preparing the soil to making the bread almost 100 chemicals can be used with growing and preparing wheat products. Cliff was fine with homemade bread made from organic flour.

Deb212
Posts: 4
Joined: Mon May 24, 2021 3:59 pm

Re: Another year of relief (Low-oxalate diet)

Post by Deb212 »

Hi Jim and Yankiwi, Thanks so much for the information. I am not celiac but have an autoimmune disease that I keep in remission by avoiding certain foods. I agree that today's grains, fruits and veggies are probably so altered that they no longer support healthy bodies. I do try to avoid the sprays and retardants used on most foods and buy organic whenever possible. I'm fortunate to be able to afford it and live in an area where organic products are readily available.
When I looked at the oxalate diet I couldn't believe how many of the high oxalate foods I ate on a daily basis, especially potatoes with skins. I think it's possible that I was making my RLS worse with these foods. Right now, I'm staying on an eating plan that is low in oxalates and salicylates while keeping my autoimmune disease in remission. It's a bit tricky but I'M ABLE TO SLEEP AT NIGHT for the first time in years.
Thanks again for the advice and information.
Deb

Deb212
Posts: 4
Joined: Mon May 24, 2021 3:59 pm

Re: Another year of relief (Low-oxalate diet)

Post by Deb212 »

Last two days I tried a little experiment and only ate white rice, cheese, eggs and meat. These are mostly zero oxalate foods. Last two nights I had zero RLS and no restlessness during the night at all. Last night I woke once to pee. It took me a little time to get back to sleep, but I eventually dozed off. I'm going to use this as a base line and add low oxalate fruits and veggies. I have noticed that bananas (a low oxalate food) may give me some restlessness. Maybe it's the histamines?
I've been reading through Jim's posts and have found a lot of useful information. Thanks for documenting your journey so others - like me :) - can benefit.

Deb212
Posts: 4
Joined: Mon May 24, 2021 3:59 pm

Re: Another year of relief (Low-oxalate diet)

Post by Deb212 »

I've been on a low oxalate/salicylate eating plan for 2 months. I've gone from unbearable daily RLS that starts within an hour of rest, to occasional and generally light RLS. I'm still not sure what exactly I'm eating (still) that exacerbates my symptoms - or not. This may just be my new baseline. Whatever it is, I'll take it.
My best to all of you and here's to a good night's sleep!

badnights
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Location: Northwest Territories, Canada

Re: Another year of relief (Low-oxalate diet)

Post by badnights »

Wow, Deb! Thanks for making us aware of the benefits it has for you.

I was motivated enough after reading your earlier post to re-print lists of low and high oxalate foods. But again, just like the other times I've thought I would try a low/no-oxylate diet, I changed my mind, thinking I can't avoid all those foods and remain healthy. It is a dilemma. I am very conscious of making sure I have sources of micronutrients - Fe, Mg, Ca, vitamins, phytonutrients, the right kinds of fatty acids, etc. No dark leafy greens?? Yikes.
from preparing the soil to making the bread almost 100 chemicals can be used with growing and preparing wheat products
Even bigger yikes! I also am on a gluten-free diet, and dairy free, and have been able to reduce my meds significantly from this diet (but was it the micronutrients? the avoidance of gluten & dairy? the elimination of sugar and heavy processing?). I would LOVE to be able to eat cheese again - and bread? I haven't allowed myself to dream of it.
I have noticed that bananas (a low oxalate food) may give me some restlessness. Maybe it's the histamines?
Not sure. Some people are very sensitive to histamines, but others maybe not so mcuh.... It's anti-histamines that mess up people with WED/RLS...
Beth - Wishing you a restful sleep tonight
Click for info on WED/RLS AUGMENTATION & IRON
I am a volunteer moderator. My posts are not medical advice. My posts do not reflect RLS Foundation opinion.

Einszwei
Posts: 8
Joined: Wed Jun 24, 2020 2:41 pm

Re: Another year of relief (Low-oxalate diet)

Post by Einszwei »

Hi everyone,

I´m still on the low oxalate diet and it´s still working great for me. I have almost no symptoms anymore and can sleep through most nights.
For the last year i was supplementing with different amounts of potassium citrate, magnesium citrate and calcium citrate, aswell as garcinia cambogia.

By far the biggest impact on my sleep came from potassium citrate. There is an almost linear correlation between my rls symptoms and the amount of potassium that i consume. Looking into this further, it became obvious that foods with a high potassium content almost always also have a high amount of oxalate in them (for vegetables at least), which made eating a sufficient amount of potassium a struggle for me.

Furthermore the imbalance of sodium and potassium intake in our modern diet makes a lack of potassium even worse. Here is a deepl translation from german wikipedia article about the balance between sodium and potassium:
In the body, potassium plays a prominent role in the regulation of membrane potential. The intracellular potassium concentration is about 150 mmol/l, extracellularly 4 mmol/l can be found. The concentration of sodium is about 10 mmol/l intracellularly, 140 mmol/l extracellularly. These concentration differences are maintained by Na/K-ATPase and are vital for cell function. A permanent shift in these cellular concentrations can lead to cardiac arrest in systole in the case of elevated K+ concentration (hyperkalemia), i.e. K+ >>4.5 mmol/l; in the case of hypokalemia (K+ <3.5 mmol/l), to a decrease in the contractility of muscles, increased excitation, disruption of excitation conduction, extrasystoles of the heart. K+ is crucial (along with Na+) for the osmotic pressure of the cells, that is, for the water content of the cell. A too low K+ concentration in the blood leads to cardiac arrest in diastole. The normal range in serum is 3.6-4.5 mmol/l, in urine 26-123 mmol/l. This means that K+ is constantly lost and must be replaced with food.

This is especially a problem in modern times, as the Western diet is dominated by the intake of animal foods. The intake of potassium-rich, plant-based foods, on the other hand, is significantly reduced compared to the past. Before the development of agriculture, potassium intake was 10.5 g/day,[51] compared to the average 3.4 g/day according to NVS II.[50] In contrast, sodium intake has shifted to the opposite: it used to be only 0.8 g/day[51] and has increased to an average of 3.1 g/day (women) and 4.3 g/day (men) due to our high-salt diet.[52] This has implications for the natural ratio of potassium to sodium in the human body.

Potassium is the natural antagonist of sodium, and a balanced ratio of the two minerals is particularly important for the regulation of physiological processes. Excessive sodium intake can lead to potassium depletion. Conversely, potassium has a natriuretic effect. In this respect, the Na/K ratio in the diet is more decisive than the concentration of the individual cations on their own. The WHO recommends a molar ratio of the two minerals of 1:1.[53] This ratio is met by WHO recommendations of less than 2 g of sodium per day[54] and at least 3.5 g of potassium per day.[53]

Translated with www.DeepL.com/Translator (free version)
With this knowledge i looked into how much potassium my daily diet provides me. It was pretty low at around 1-1,5g of potassium per day, so at the moment i am supplementing with potassium citrate to get around 3,5g of potassium daily.

For anyone who has some success with the low oxalate diet, i recommend looking into your potassium intake. It helped me tremendously.

Be warned though: too much potassium is very dangerous and could actually kill you!

badnights
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Re: Another year of relief (Low-oxalate diet)

Post by badnights »

Thank you for this information! It certainly has me thinking. Again.

How have you managed your potassium supplementation - with any doctor's advice, or totally on your own?
hypokalemia (K+ <3.5 mmol/l), to a decrease in the contractility of muscles, increased excitation, disruption of excitation conduction, extrasystoles of the heart.
I have ectopic rhythm aka extra beats aka extrasystoles. I should ask my doctor if I might have a potassium deficiency. But I eat a lot of vegetables and a wide variety; I haven't yet dared to try the low-oxalate or the low-histamine diet; so why would I be deficient?
Beth - Wishing you a restful sleep tonight
Click for info on WED/RLS AUGMENTATION & IRON
I am a volunteer moderator. My posts are not medical advice. My posts do not reflect RLS Foundation opinion.

Einszwei
Posts: 8
Joined: Wed Jun 24, 2020 2:41 pm

Re: Another year of relief (Low-oxalate diet)

Post by Einszwei »

badnights wrote:
Wed Jun 23, 2021 5:20 am
How have you managed your potassium supplementation - with any doctor's advice, or totally on your own?
I have managed my supplementation on my own after having my blood sampled and finding a low potassium concentration (on the verge of deficiency).
I started with a low dose and gradually increased it after finding positive results.

At the moment i´m taking 1g of potassium in the morning (~2,6+g of potassium citrate depending on how much water is in the citrate) and 1g in the evening before my meals.

badnights wrote:
Wed Jun 23, 2021 5:20 am
I haven't yet dared to try the low-oxalate or the low-histamine diet; so why would I be deficient?
Is your diet very salty? Maybe you are not potassium deficient, but your balance between sodium and potassium is bad? Furthermore oxalic acid likes to react with potassium and other minerals to form oxalate salts. Maybe the vegetables that you eat are high in oxalic acid, which reacts with the potassium?

badnights
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Location: Northwest Territories, Canada

Re: Another year of relief (Low-oxalate diet)

Post by badnights »

Is your diet very salty? Maybe you are not potassium deficient, but your balance between sodium and potassium is bad? Furthermore oxalic acid likes to react with potassium and other minerals to form oxalate salts. Maybe the vegetables that you eat are high in oxalic acid, which reacts with the potassium?
I don't add salt to anything, so I doubt it's that. I do eat veg's that are high in oxalic acid, but so do a lot of people.... Anyway, I will continue to think about it. Maybe I will ask my doc if I can get it tested next time I see her.
Beth - Wishing you a restful sleep tonight
Click for info on WED/RLS AUGMENTATION & IRON
I am a volunteer moderator. My posts are not medical advice. My posts do not reflect RLS Foundation opinion.

Oozz
Posts: 141
Joined: Wed Oct 11, 2017 8:09 pm

Re: Another year of relief (Low-oxalate diet)

Post by Oozz »

I don’t understand the connection between oxalates and RLS. These papers says oxalic acid does not influence iron

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/17440529/
https://www.hindawi.com/journals/jnme/2020/7373498/
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/2821800/

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